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What Do People Think Science Fiction Is?

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What is Science Fiction? Oh, sure, we all know it when we see it, more or less, but what *is* it? How would you define it? Like planets and continents, It’s a vast and slippery beast without a solid definition. Well, ok, Planets have a definition now, but it’s a stupid and disingenuous one, and there’s still not a solidly agreed-upon definition for continents or subcontinents. That’s just not good enough for earthy young snobs like ourselves, now is it? If you can define it, you own it on some basic mental level.

We’ve spent a fair amount of time here on Republibot trying to define exactly what SF is ( http://www.republibot.com/content/roundtable-discussion-1-so-what-scienc... ) and what it isn’t, and what it’s job - if any - is. Towards the end of 2009, I was flabbergasted by some of the things a couple total strangers were telling me about what is and isn’t SF. They seemed rational enough, college educated, good jobs, but they had no freakin’ clue. It was like asking a polar bear for information about basketball - there was just no frame of reference. They seemed to believe it was the job of the genre to accurately predict the future, and things that didn’t do so could be discounted out of hand. Thus, for instance, “War of the Worlds” was now rubbish because the Martians never invaded.

Wow.

I assumed these were just passing nitwits, but then I met a friend of a friend who claimed to really like SF, but had no idea what it is. Then another. Then another who felt that it was basically a modern version of astrology, and hence evil.

Wow and wower still.

Just for the hell of it, I decided to run a survey of people I know who were likely to answer surveys, just to see what the common opinions were. It’s not at all scientific, just a way of getting a general idea of the consensus, if any.

I kept it really simple: just five questions

1)What is Science Fiction? I don't want an essay, just give me the shortest sensible definition of what *you personally* think it means, what you think of when the term comes up. I want your definition, so don't look it up in a dictionary or whatever.

2) Is "Lost" a Science Fiction show? Yes or no? Please include a *short* explanation as to why you think it is or isn't. If you haven't actually seen the show, that doesn't matter, you can give me your impression from hearing other people talk about it and/or commercials.

3)What is "Doctor Who" all about? Just give a *short* explanation of what you think the show's premise is. Again, if you haven't actually seen it, that doesn't matter, I want to know what you *think* the show is about from secondhand comments. Again, don't cheat and look it up, I want your own opinion.

4) Name five science fiction movies or TV shows that don't have "Star" in the title, and aren't members of the major SF Franchises. (By which I mean Star Trek, Star Wars, Stargate, Battlestar Galactica, and Dr. Who aren't elligiable.) If you can't think of five off the top of your head, just list as many as you can think of.

5) What's the last Science Fiction book you've read? If you've never read one, just say that.

This was intended as a quick-and-dirty litmus, and here’s my reasoning: Question one is pretty self-explanatory. Question two is about the most popular American SF show at the present, so if people deny that it’s SF, they haven’t got a clue. Question three is about the most popular, longest running SF show in history (31 seasons and counting, 762 episodes. No, that’s not a typo: 762 episodes!). Given all that, if someone is even remotely interested in SF, they’ll have heard of it and sought it out. They may not like it (It’s a very uneven, frequently boring show through most of its run), but they’ll at least know what it is. Likewise, if they’ve never heard of it, odds are they’re just not all that into SF. Question four is just general knowledge: If you can only name Trek/Wars, again, you’re probably not all that into the genre. Question five is basically to let us know if they’re into the deep stuff or the shallow stuff. Again, if it’s a Star Wars/Star Trek title, odds are they’re really not into the more challenging stuff.

I sent out 44 questionnaires via email, I got twenty-four responses,

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Republibot 3.0
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Now That The New Wave Is Old News

Totally, unequivocably, without reservation, I agree. Part of the fun, and part of the inherent limitations of SF in the early days was its engineering-based nature, which frequently overrode the literary aspects of the story. Clarke, for instance, was just the crappiest writer I've ever come across, and Asimov, though vastly better (And smarter) was dry as hell. Heinlein is wildly venerated for his work not so much because his stories were doing things that hadn't been done before, but because he told them well. He had characters (Eventually) and talked about them like an honest-to-God writer, and not like tedious people who get in the way of the author's love-letter to the vaccum tube.

The whole "New Wave" SF movement was basically an attempt to move SF from engineering stories and tech-mysteries into more human territory, and really most of my favorite stuff falls into that category - Ballard, Dick, Disch, some Ellison, etc - but I think that gave way to entirly mushy Space-Fiction-With-Occasional-Science, which we saw in the 70s and 80s.

Sadly, as the writing itself got better, few really stood up with new ideas to amaze us. Partially, it's harder since so much of real life is 'been there, done that' as you pointed out, but a lot of it is also a failure of the imagination, both of the writers and of the readers themselves.

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neorandomizer
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You hit the target

R3 you have hit on the heart of the ‘is science fiction dead’ and the ‘what is science fiction’ questions. Both questions are interrelated because of a few factors. Sci Fi as a genre has matured and the technological level of every day life have caught up to most Sci Fi elements.

Science fiction is a child of the scientific and industrial age; it was a reaction to the changing world of the 18th and 19th century. It started as a branch of horror and expanded from people being afraid of what the then new scientists were doing to how this new knowledge is going to change everyday life.

Even though we do not usually see it we now live in a Sci Fi world. The fact that I am typing this on a PC that I built and have connected to a world wide information and communication network to discuses science fiction was sci fi when I was a kid. Space flight been there done that, cloning done (human cloning also might have), earth like planets might have found one, robots being used at this moment, aliens still unknown. My point is what was sci fi just 30 years ago is now every day news.

Think of it my cell phone has more computing power than what was used by the Apollo to go to the Moon. In this world it is hard to write an interesting story that will cause wonder. Many of what is considered sci fi ideas are just engineering problems now not the stuff of what if but more do we want to. Flight to the Moon and Mars is something we could do in a few years if we really wanted to, you can now have your favorite pet cloned if you have the money.

The only thing left is to write stories that people will enjoy and not worry if they are really Sci Fi or a techno thriller or what have you. That is one of the reasons that fantasy is now out selling Sci Fi that sense of wonder at a world that is not your own.

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Urban SF

I vote no. This is entirely a matter of taste, of course, but shows like "Superforce," "Gene Roddenberry's Corpse on Earth: Final Conflict," "Dark Angel," "Total Recall 2051," (Very possibly "Caprica,") and any number of others have convinced me that such shows basically suck. Again, just my own taste, but if I'm watching an SF show, I want some sense of wonder, I want to be taken to a well-realized new world. It can be earth, I'm cool with that, but I want something new and original and enchanting and mysterious, I don't want a urine-stained Vancouver alleyway, limbo-lit warehouses, and talking-and-walking-like-Buffy-and-Angel-in-the-sewers scenes.

That's my bias, of course, other people are welcome to their opinions.

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neorandomizer
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a new sub genre

I thought Primer was an excellent movie; it had a good premise and plot. Like Pi it proved you do not need a big budget to make a good sci fi film.

I would love to see more films with a solid story and less reliance on CGI and special effects. An urban sci fi movement like the urban fantasy craze could breathe new life into the genre.

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retire them all

>>I've suggested that we ought to simply retire Time Travel, Aliens, FTL travel, Earthlike habitable worlds, etc, as being 'too easy' and try to find something a little more challenging to replace 'em with.<<

Aww, but then Primer would never have been made.

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Staples

>>>I guess sci-fi as a genre (i.e. "extrapolation") and sci-fi as a set of plot trappings (such as space travel, time travel, cloning, robots, aliens, laser guns, etc.) have grown far enough apart that neither of them necessarily implies the other anymore.<<<

This is something I've been toying with for a long time now: That the staples of the genre have become so universal that they're not really fantastic anymore, they're simply cliches. Given that - given that they no longer convey any sense of wonder, just a sense of what we *expect* to happen - they're actually probably detracting somewhat from the sense of Extrapolation more than contributing to it.

I've suggested that we ought to simply retire Time Travel, Aliens, FTL travel, Earthlike habitable worlds, etc, as being 'too easy' and try to find something a little more challenging to replace 'em with. (JG Ballard, for instance, wrote a skillion SF novels and stories, and none of 'em ever took place off of earth, but generally the earth itself was transformed nearly out of all recognition in the most dreamlike of ways)

Of course I haven't really done this myself. In my one-off stories, I still use all the cliches (Well, I've never written a time travel story), generally to set up the punchline for the tale. Nothing remarkable there. In my more serious "Redneck Universe" (Copyright 2010, Republibot 3.0) stories, however, I avoid as many of 'em as possible, and the ones I can't avoid I deliberately make as clunky as possible so as to de-fabulize 'em, and impose some technological limitations in the story. (Starships are light speed or slower, no aliens, Ever! There are habitable worlds, but none of 'em are really ideal, and even the good ones are awkward enough to have psychological effects on the colonists, etc.)

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Republibot 3.0
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Jumping Off Points

>>>borderline sci-fi, depending on whether theological extrapolation counts.<<<

Oh, absolutely it counts! Philip K. Dick got a lot of mileage out of it, and SF allows you to ponder the questions attendant upon the existence of God in a theoretical, non-dogmatic way. (Though that's always dangerous on a lot of different levels in a lot of different ways, and probably not for the neophytes)

Thanks for the examples, it makes it easier to make sure we're talking about the same thing. I'd submit Larry Niven's "Magic Goes Away..." series, in which Magic is a non-renewable energy source, and the reason there's no magic in our world is because our ancestors used it all up. It's basically an extended riff on the gas crunch from the early '70s, but it's brilliant because he makes magic follow mundane, logical rules.

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The Enemy Below

>>>I heard an interview with the director of Star Trek II and he said he based the final battle on the movie ‘The Enemy Below’<<<

I love that movie! The first Romulan episode of TOS was a blatant note-for-note ripoff of The Enemy Below. Voyage to the Bottom of the Sea did just as blatant a ripoff of it that same year, and even used stock footage from the film!

>>>Even the battles in ‘Babylon 5’ where unrealistic but like I said to have an accurate space battle would make bad TV.<<<

Yeah, I agree. They still get high marks from me for at least obeying the laws of physics, though.

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"All Space Opera"

>>>Isn't that a good blanket definition for ALL space opera? The whole 'extrapolation' angle is frequently absent.<<<

Probably not 'all', but definitely most. B5 had a good deal of extrapolation, and a lot of the show's drama came from how new developments shifted the balance of power - Aliens genetically engineering telepaths to be shock troops in a war, the telepaths getting out of control, and siezing their own government, the effects of aliens on human society, and the effects of humans on alien society, etc. Of course this extrapolative spine was often trapped in a very flabby body of normal zoom-swoosh-bang-bang, but it was there (As opposed to Trek, where the Status Quo must be maintained at all consts.)

Even Stargate has a surprising ammount of extrapolation, though I'll be the first to admit it's nowhere near as bright as that in B5 (And neither are as good as any well-written Future History, like say, "The Past Through Tomorrow" or Niven's "Known Space" stuff) - they learn more as they go along, they aquire new tech and/or abilities, and they apply them consistently in subsequent episodes, so there's a degree there.

But I definitely agre that 99% of all shows and movies out there - Trek, Andromeda, either Galactica, Space: Above and Beyond, Tom Corbet Space Cadet, anything Star Wars, Space: 1999, UFO, you name it - have no extrapolation whatsoever.

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metaphizzle
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I guess sci-fi as a genre

I guess sci-fi as a genre (i.e. "extrapolation") and sci-fi as a set of plot trappings (such as space travel, time travel, cloning, robots, aliens, laser guns, etc.) have grown far enough apart that neither of them necessarily implies the other anymore.

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SF vs fantasy

>>Very, very interesting point. I like that - it's the extrapolation, not the jumping-off point. Can you give me examples, and how you'd differentiate them from Fantasy and SF?<<

Sample jumping-off point: Magic exists in the modern world, and certain myths / fairy tales are more-or-less true.

One story that handles this in a sci-fi manner is my favorite comic series, Gunnerkrigg Court. One of the major forces driving the plot is an ideological magic vs science conflict. On one side, there are humans trying to figure out how various extranormal phenomenon work: One girl discovers the molecular composition of a sentient shadow; her parents designed a computer program that wards off body-snatching demons. On the other hand, the majority of the mythical creatures all hold to the philosophy that trying to learn about the workings of magic (or the universe in general) is impossible and wrong.

(I won't go so far as to call GC completely sci-fi, because the above is only one subplot out of 5 or so, and the other subplots are all fantasy mysteries or fantasy coming-of-age stories.)

On the other hand, the Hellboy comic series handles this in the fantasy way. There's some philosophizing about free will, and that chestnut of "Are sapient non-humans worth more or less than humans?" gets brought up once or twice. But for the most part, the fairies, witches, mermaids, ghosts, werewolves, and insane mystics are all there as a reason for Hellboy to save the day by punching things.

Another sample jumping-off point: Aliens exist.

Out of the Silent Planet and Perelandra by C.S. Lewis are the sci-fi take on this, in spite of the unrealistic (and deliberately so) depictions of Mars and Venus, because Lewis delves into the theological ramifications of sapient life on other planets. Okay, borderline sci-fi, depending on whether theological extrapolation counts.

Whereas in Alien Vs. Predator, the extraterrestrials just exist to fight each other and to kill any squishy humans who get between them.

And I've no intention of dissing any works for not being sci-fi. Star Wars is indeed a High Fantasy with the trappings of pulp sci-fi, but I still love it for what it is.

neorandomizer
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Science Fantasy = TV sci fi

Yes most space opera is fantasy because it is hard to have an exciting space battle that has realistic orbital mechanics. The book ‘Mote in Gods Eye’ tried and did a pretty good job but most of the action takes place in the ship or on a planet’s surface. The Star Trek or Star Wars space battle while neat is totally unrealistic. I heard an interview with the director of Star Trek II and he said he based the final battle on the movie ‘The Enemy Below’ he also said he argued with Roddenberry that Star Fleet was the Navy and Roddenberry insisted that it was the Coast Guard.

Even the battles in ‘Babylon 5’ where unrealistic but like I said to have an accurate space battle would make bad TV. It is easier just to write them like they are either a World War II carrier battle or like an 18th century gun battle between sailing ships. It is well known that the Star Wars battle with the Death Star was based on the Battle of Midway.

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"Star Wars is fantasy,

"Star Wars is fantasy, masquerading as SF."

Isn't that a good blanket definition for ALL space opera? The whole 'extrapolation' angle is frequently absent.

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Definitely you have a point

>>>I think trying to make a hard distinction between "non-existent technology" and "magic" is doomed to fail. Our current understanding of physics is that faster-than-light travel is completely impossible; why are FTL-capable spaceships considered sci-fi while magic teleportation spells are fantasy?<<<

Definitely you have a point there: Teleportation is magic, gussied up with hoo-hah about subspace particles transmission and blah blah blah. The line between magic and tech is fuzzy. There are things we just agree to ignore - FTL - to tell the story, and that pushes it more towards fantasy. The sloppier the story, the more fantastic it becomes. But definitely there's a huge gulf between Captain Nemo's Coal/Electric submarine and the Battlestar Galactica.

>>>I'm more of the opinion that it's the extrapolation itself--not the nature of the points you're extrapolating from--that defines the difference between hard SF and other branches of speculative fiction.

Which means I don't think Star Wars is really sci-fi.<<<

Very, very interesting point. I like that - it's the extrapolation, not the jumping-off point. Can you give me examples, and how you'd differentiate them from Fantasy and SF?

Star Wars is fantasy, masquerading as SF.

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metaphizzle
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Extrapolation

>>If it was extrapolative in any way, and based on plausible-yet-nonexistent tech, then yeah.<<

I don't know, I think trying to make a hard distinction between "non-existent technology" and "magic" is doomed to fail. Our current understanding of physics is that faster-than-light travel is completely impossible; why are FTL-capable spaceships considered sci-fi while magic teleportation spells are fantasy?

I'm more of the opinion that it's the extrapolation itself--not the nature of the points you're extrapolating from--that defines the difference between hard SF and other branches of speculative fiction.

Which means I don't think Star Wars is really sci-fi.

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"You got your fantasy in my peanutbutter..."

"You got your fantasy in my peanutbutter!"
"And you got your peanutbutter in my fantasy!"

I'm not sure if I'm the kind of person to howl about combining genres. Probably I do, but I'm probably more lenient than most of my geeky breteren. I didn't mind the religious aspect of the new BSG, though it drove a lot of people nuts, I didn't mind that the Cylon religion ended up being prove more-or-less right, either. When they went totally Deus Ex Machina in the end, however, that pissed me off right good, since it was just sloppy writing that negated everything that'd come before.

Conversely, though God is clearly at work in LOTR, He's not doing stuff Himself, there's plenty of room for people to screw up.

So if Campbell made it less fashionable for authors to cheat by throwing magic in at the end, well, more power to him!

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neorandomizer
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A matter of taste

R3 It's a matter of taste but it does make it easier to find in the book store. I happen to like both hard science fiction and fantasy and since I like both I do not mind when an author mixes the two when it is done right. But I have read and herd people howl in rage when fantasy is mixed with sci fi.

In the pulp years of the 30's and 40's there was not much distinction between sci fi and fantasy. I think we can thank Campbell for the slit of the two.

The early masters of pulp sci fi, fantasy and horror like Howard, Lovecraft, Edger Rice Burroughs made no distinction between the genres. If you go back to Poe he is considered to have been the father of the American brand of all of the named genres.

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Speculative Fiction

>>I have always hated that people get locked in to definitions of things in fiction which may reflect my eclectic tastes. I like the tag speculative fiction instead of science fiction or fantasy.<<

I prefer SF to Fantasy. If you wanna' stick both into the same ghetto, and say one street is SF and another is Fantasy, that's fine by me, but I prefer the SF label simply because it means I know what I'm getting when I plunk down my cash.

Which isn't to say either genre must be exclusive. As you pointed out, PKD is often fantasy-ish, and some fantasy is frequently SF-ish. I'm cool with that, I don't need everything to fit neatly into a particular box, but I do prefer SF to fantasy.

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Where does alternative(alternate?)history fall in?

>>Where does alternative(alternate?)history fall in?<<

Very good question!

If the reason for the departure from real history is given, and it's technological, then it's SF. ("Guns of the South," "Bring the Jubilee," etc) If the departure involves some kind of non-scientific explanation, then it's fantasy (As in OSC's "Alvin Maker" series).

If it's a serious attempt to explain different ways things could have gone, without either of these elements (IE: What would history be like if Hitler died in WWI, or if Lee took the Roundtops the day before Ghettysburg), then arguably it's not either, it's simply a very esoteric form of historical studies.

I'd still tend to put that in the "SF" category, however, because at root, extrapolation is what SF does, you know?

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Extrapolation

>>>Extrapolation makes the difference in hard s-f.
The John Campbell definition of S-F was "If this goes on...", I'd say he was right.

Now, LOST isn't very extrapolative, but it does explore some of the tropes of time travel (among other things). Fast Forward extrapolates, but the subject of it's extrapolation is a bit dull.<<<

TO a greater or lesser extent, yes. War of the Worlds was an extrapolation in that it asks 'what happens if some high tech civilizaiton does to us what we've done to lower tech civilizations?' 20,000 Leagues was a pure-and-simple extrapolation of submarine technology, with a socially concious story grafted on. Trek was (At least initially) a fanciful extrapolation of 60s trends in space exploration, scientific theory, and the Civil Rights Movement, and so on.

Some of these, obviously, are better than others, but yes, Extrapolation is a fundamental part of the genre: If this, then that...

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neorandomizer
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why is it important

I have always hated that people get locked in to definitions of things in fiction which may reflect my eclectic tastes. I like the tag speculative fiction instead of science fiction or fantasy. Much of the best and worst of science fiction is really science fantasy because the technology is not central to the sorry and usual is just a black box that does something and is not explained.

A case in point is that much of the last few novels by Phil Dick more fit into the fantasy or science fantasy pidgin hole but most people consider him a science fiction writer. The original book The Andromeda Stain was first marketed as a techno thriller and after the movie it became science fiction. In fact Michael Crichton was considered a techno thriller writer before people said he was a science fiction writer. Much of the debate about what is sci fi is by people who need to have everything in nice neat packages. (Mostly people with a marketing background)

I know that there are some people that get really antsy if magic gets into what would be a si fi story or if technology gets into a fantasy but I am not one of those. Roger Zelazny wrote many stories that had both and I enjoyed them. Of course it is a matter of taste but I believe having strict definitions of stories stops people from trying deferent stories that they may like but do not read or watch them because it’s marketed as science fiction or fantasy or crime drama etc.

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Alternative History

Where does alternative(alternate?)history fall in?

Turtledove's GUNS OF THE SOUTH qualifies as sci-fi (a bunch of South African white supremacists use a time machine to give Robert E. Lee's Army of Northern Virginia AK-47s).

But what about HOW FEW REMAIN? Which is simple straight-forward alternative history. (The South outmaneuvers Union in 1862)

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Campbellian S-F

So, then...
Extrapolation makes the difference in hard s-f.
The John Campbell definition of S-F was "If this goes on...", I'd say he was right.

Now, LOST isn't very extrapolative, but it does explore some of the tropes of time travel (among other things). Fast Forward extrapolates, but the subject of it's extrapolation is a bit dull.

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Yes

Yeah, I'll say yes. If it was extrapolative in any way, and based on plausible-yet-nonexistent tech, then yeah.

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CSI as SF

Okay.... if the CSI franchise were to suddenly explore the implications of the drawing-board tech that they use, and extrapolate what Las Vegas, Miami or New York would be like as a result of crime scene techniques that result in a significantly higher arrest rate/quicker apprehension.... THEN it would be Science-Fiction?

Actually, that sounds kind of fun....

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For me, personally,

I'd consider SF to be anything that explores the concepts of change arising from technology. How does a teleporter affect soceity? How do we react if we discovere there really are aliens, etc? Once more advanced technology exists, how will that allow us to reorganize society? What different possible ways are there that we could live?

If you tackle those questions from a technological basis, it's SF. If you tackle them from a magical basis, it's fantasy. If you tackle 'em from a theological basis, it's religion. If you go after 'em from any other angle, it's pointless hippie crap.

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"Any reasonable definition of SF"

I can see what kind of Dr. Who fan you are...

While what you say is clearly-if-technically true, I'm going to say that CSI is *not* Science Fiction even if it's toe is stuck in the pool. This may well be disingenuous on my part, but it comes down to intent, I think. CSI has no interest in being an SF show, just like NCIS has no interest in being one (Though it shares a lot of the same SF-tropes you mentioned for CSI). There's no concerted effort to develop a mythos, there's no attempt at extrapolation of futuristic technology beyond the exigencies of the script, there's no interest in any of that stuff.

If their computers can do stuff our computers can't, but basically because of laziness on the part of the writers - "How much MacGuffin tech can we get away with, before our viewers start to call shenanegins on us?"

Just as not every movie with a horse in it is a western, not every show with gee-gosh-wow tech is SF.

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nwkeys01
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Sci-fi

I just decided to just go ahead and answer the questions before realizing you weren't asking us to.

1. I consider science fiction to be show that involve some advanced technology/knowledge of some sort that might be possible that we did not have at that time.

2. Lost? well, no, i don't really consider it a science fiction show, it could possibly be, but I'll just wait to judge when its all over.

3. dr. who? the best short answer I can think of "A lot of fun with a time machine" without going into detail of Time Lords, Daleks, Cybermen, etc.

4. Defying Gravity, Warehouse 13, Jurassic Park, Cowboy Bebop, Tron, Eureka, Avatar

5. read a lot,
Abandon in Place, Anywhere but Here, & Getaway Special all by Jerry Oltion

1632 series by Eric Flint
Grand Tour series & most recently the Winds of Altair by Ben Bova

sysadmin 2.0
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Laughed, hard.

"out of every thirteen people who watch Doctor Who, five of them will be insufferable pains in the ass."
I laughed until I stopped.

The CSI franchise is marginal, hard science fiction. Science is integral to the premise, some of the equipment that is used is extrapolated technology (not currently feasible, but plausible based on the current state of the art). The speculative element is so pervasive, yet low key, it's hardly noticeable as such- but honestly, a good amount of the tech they use is in prototype or drawing board stage, if that.

CSI fits into any reasonable definition of Science-Fiction.

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nwkeys01 embarrassed at some of the republican post-election behavior. Democrats too, but Republicans just seem to be more vocal about it. 27 weeks ago
nwkeys01 @neorandomizer I just I think 1 term of 6 yrs. would work better. More work done,no presidents having to spend a whole year campaigning 27 weeks ago
neorandomizer @nwkeys01 Why change something that has worked for over two hundred years 27 weeks ago
nwkeys01 Want to punch Boehner in the face. It wasn't a concesion, he was blaming, and saying, we won't help unless u don't do what you said to win. 27 weeks ago
nwkeys01 idea: change president terms. 1 term only. Terms last 6 years. 27 weeks ago
Kevin Long Good for Puerto Rico if they're actually doing it this time. I think they should. 27 weeks ago
neorandomizer @nwkeys01 Good for Puerto Rico now we need to also bring in Guam to even out the Senate 27 weeks ago