SONG OF THE WEEK: "The Old Rugged Cross" from Doctor Who (2006)

Yeah, which is very clearly and overtly refering to The Law. He also mentions the incident where David was on the run, and ate food that had been consecrated to God without punishment.

I have to say I'm impressed you guys know this stuff. Over on another site, I'm invovled in this discussion with several people who are trying to claim Jesus was fictional. They keep making these irritatingly broad statements which they claim are 'know facts' but which have no basis in the Bible, nor any basis in what we know of 1st century culture or politics. Basically, they're slapping random third-hand stuff together, and few of them seem to have thought to actually *read* a Bible before venturing an opinon.

So: always nice to talk to people who are aware of the source material. Thanks!

>>>"Do not think that I came to destroy the Law or the Prophets. I did not come to destroy but to fulfill. For assuredly, I say to you, till heaven and earth pass away, one jot or one tittle will by no means pass from the law till all is fulfilled." -- Matthew 5:17-18<<<

Yup. And yet we're no longer subject to Levitical law, are we? It's a curious statement that's been apologized away in various fashions, but the one I like best is that Jesus fulfilled the Law, so even though it still exists, we're on the other side of it, beyond its jurisdiction if you will.

But of course Jesus (in Matthew) is talking about Levitical law, so really, I guess what I'm skeptical about is churches heaping new clerical laws atop what we've already got. If a person with grace has been freed from the law, then why would they need *two* laws? Does that make sense?

Again, I'm not trying to talk trash to anyone, it's just the way it rolls out in my mind. Your mileage may vary.

>>>I totally believe that God is just as present in a simple no-frills gathering of believers as he might be in the most high church, but I personally like some pomp or ritual. Ideally, the goal of the colors, the music, the impressive architecture, etc, is really just to awe one with the greatness of the divine. I think that this is a good purpose, regardless of doctrine or theology, but I'm sure some people might find it more distracting than inspiring. Whatever makes one feel close to God is good, and God, like Paul, can be "all things to all men."<<<

I totally, completely, emphatically agree. God is where you find Him, and if you can't find Him in an Orthodox service (The most ornate services I'm aware of), maybe you can find Him in a missionary's hut, and if not there, then perhaps in a Lutheran church, and if not there...and so on.

When I was a kid I was raised nondenominational (Which is of course a denomination in itself), and we were told that denominationalism is bad. We used to sing this hymn (I forget the title) that had the verse "And we pray that all unity will someday be restored." In my anarchist days, I began to realize that the church fragmented almost immediately (Paul mentions it in the mid-50s), and far from being bad, it's probably part of The Grand Design. If Christianity is about a personal relationship with Christ, then you *need* eleventy-jillion different kinds of churches because there are eleventy-jillion kinds of people. Think of it as niche marketing.

>>>but in fact many Protestant churches seem to have preserved at least as much "Law" as Catholics or CoE. They're even often much more conservative in opposing things like playing cards or other games, co-ed schools, dating; and much stricter in "respecting the Sabbath," removing unchristian influences (such as sci-fi, heh) from their lives, etc. These are all rules proceeding from their religious views.<<<

Oh, believe you me, I've had many a run-in with that. Even got stuck in a "Dancing is evil" one for a while. Yeah, I have to suspect this is the exact kind of thing Paul was warning about - legalism as opposed to love, a rulebook as opposed to an understanding. Wow, that sounded kind of sloagany, but as far as I know I just thought it up. Anyway, that is every bit as large a concern in the low churches as the high, I totally agree.

Of course some people want/need this, that's where they find God, so I can't really complain about it much, but it doesn't really fit me personally (Cf: my anarchist days)

>>>at a Mass one feels part of the community which seems to be lost in some Protestant Churches these days.<<<

I don't know how to feel about that. There's definitely a feeling of community at my church, but we don't do much to reinforce it, and where you tend to find it is in the classes and special programs and stuff, where people tend to bond, not so much in the services from what I see, which is a little odd since this particular church is mildly charismatic.

I think the music might be one aspect of it, I think it's also the "Megachurch"phenomenon that has kind of overtaken American Protestantism. Some of it, I think, is demographic marketing. Personally, I prefer smaller, more organic churches.

>>WOW was not even close to describing the effect. I was kinda having the same reaction as Martha was.<<

I had no idea. That's disappointing, but I'm happy it backfired on him. I'll never understand the disdain some people carry for the very things that hold us together. "I was scared, so I sang a song to God, and it made me feel better." There is no God. "Whatever, I sang a song to a God who may or may not exist, and it made me feel better" Well, that's stupid, you should stand on your own two feet, accept life as it is, not use any crutches, and comply to my own perception of reality in all things. "So I'm not to sing?" No. "I'm just to sit in the darkness and be scared?" Yes. Anything else would be incorrect and hence wrong.

I don't get that kind of thinking.

"Abide with me" provides a very powerful scene in "Voyage" by Stephen Baxter.