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REALSPACE: Obama and the Attempt to Destroy NASA

John Many Jars's picture

Boys and girls, are you sitting comfortably? Good.

Once upon a time, there was a government agency tasked with a great
undertaking, landing a man on the moon, and returning him safely to
the Earth. This great undertaking was successful. The government
agency, NASA, which headed up that rare endeavour, a successful
government program, was rewarded by Congress and the President, with an attempt to destroy it. That attempt, unlike the program, was almost successful.

That last attempt to destroy the Human Space Flight Program was nearly forty years ago. The only way the agency could survive was to promise everything to everyone. They would design a “space truck”, it would be nearly free to run, it would fly dozens of times a year, launch all commercial satellites, all defence satellites, build a space station, and be developed for a pittance. Indeed, it would even rescue Skylab, the mini space station that Congress condescended to allow to be built from left over Apollo hardware. This all sounded great (except to Walter Mondale). The shuttle, in the end, met almost none of these goals, but it kept America in the orbital flag pole sitting business. But it was something.

After the second, hubris caused, shuttle “accident”, President Bush
decided to end the shuttle program and build an entirely new space
infrastructure, with the express purpose of going to the Moon and then Mars. Finally, NASA had a mission to accomplish that involved more than wasting a hundred billion dollars on a space station to nowhere.

The plan wasn’t perfect, and President Bush appointed the wrong person to lead it, twice, but it was a plan, and it was beginning to come together. Sure, it was running over budget, as these things always do, and there were technical problems, as these things always have, but despite all that, we had something worthwhile to do.

Enter the Obama administration.

Senator Obama’s space policy was to “delay” the Constellation program, for five years, so he could spend the money on “education”. The senator probably didn’t know, or care, how many engineers chose that field, and managed to get their engineering degrees, because of the Apollo program, and the inspiration provided by NASA. We all know what a five year delay means, folks, it means, de-facto cancellation.

With the shuttle being retired in 2010 (later to slip to 2011) the
delay would mean not only a complete halt to US manned space flight
for at least ten years, but the destruction of the man space program’s political base.

This “plan” did not seem to survive contact with the election campaign, and the Republican candidate, John McCain. McCain, stumbling with vital election issues, like the economy, was desperatefor any issue that might provide some traction. Suddenly, candidate Obama was interested not devastating the NASA budget, but increasing it. Good news, you might think.

Well, you’d be wrong.

Margaret Thatcher coined the phrase, “You can’t turn if you want to. The lady’s not for turning.” Perhaps the President should review that speech.

In any case, after giving a rousing speech to NASA workers during the election campaign, promising that he valued what they were doing, and promising that he would continue the current program, he appointed space and aviation industry stooge, Norm Augustine to head NASA’s “death panel”. This report concluded, predictably enough, that only “private industry” could deliver space hardware at some sort of affordable budget, and that the current program was “unaffordable”. Of course, this ignores the fact that space hardware has always been produced by “private industry”. Government contractors have produced all human spaceflight hardware, since day one. The main difference here is which companies would get the money. Instead of companies skilled at producing human rated equipment, the report concluded, we should give government funding to companies with absolutely no experience in keeping humans alive and well in the most dangerous human endeavours.

Norm was shocked, shocked to discover that there wasn’t enough funding. He must have spent his entire career in aerospace sat at the bottom of a well someplace. Everyone else knows how the system works, NASA promises things at one level, and delivers them at two to three times that funding level.

Mr. Augustine’s report, of course, was intended to give the
administration cover – cover to redirect billions of taxpayer dollars to the likes of Elon Musk and other friends of the administration. This plot, and I don’t use the word lightly, would require nothing short of breaking the law, which the administration immediately set out to do, by the de facto cancelling of the Constellation program, without Congressional approval.

Members of Congress, especially members in districts that have jobs at stake, were understandably upset. Their plan to go to the moon, and provide lots of nifty pork for their districts, was in tatters. The nine BILLION dollars already spent on Constellation fell down a rat hole, and they didn’t even get a stupid tee-shirt. Many of their constituents faced layoffs, and the pork barrels were being moved elsewhere.

Where does this leave the country, and NASA? Well, Congress has
mandated that NASA, instead of abandoning all government launches to SpaceX, build a heavy launch vehicle. No one is sure what will be done with it because all moon related infrastructure has been
cancelled. Currently, NASA seems to be trying to run down the clock, presumably at the C-in-C’s orders. The country is back to a worse situation than ever before. There is no mission, no certainty, no plan and no American human access to a space station we (largely) paid for, without help from the former Soviet Union.

One day, we might go to an asteroid, or Phobos. Probably, we will go nowhere. Meanwhile, Barak Obama has shown himself to be a dissembling liar. When the history books are written marking the end of the American Empire, there will be a picture of Barak Obama and Charlie Bolden, handing over the keys.

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John Many Jars is a political liberal and an American Expatriate living in England. His opposition to the President's space policy is nonpartisan.

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Republibot 3.0
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I'm genuinely surprised

I'm genuinely surprised by that, but I'll bow to your superior arithmatic abilities as I'm tragically innumerate. So no argument on your calculations, you're right and I'm wrong.

Thinking about it, we saw people looking through windows in the hull, so it wasn't all that thick, maybe a foot or so. But ignoring the "perfect cylinder" thing, there was a lot of crap packed in to it. Check this out:

http://www.frostjedi.com/vex/assets/images/b5map01b.jpg

Many sections were *Sixty* decks thick! So, back of the envelope 150Tg?

The Artist Formerly Known As Republibot 3.0

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Re: Bad with numbers

R3,

I'm sorry. I'm bad with numbers. I honestly can't tell if you're agreeing with me or not?

One Tg is equal to a million metric tons. My estimate was 250 Tg based upon the geometry of a perfect hollow cylinder about the size and shape as what was presented on the television screen and the mass density of the wonder material of the 19th century, mild steel. The mass of the space station was stated as 2.5 Tg. If you make the thickness of the hollow cylinder approximately equal to 15 mm, then one can get a total mass of approximately 2.5 Tg. The stated figure was approximately two orders of magnitude too low.

While my estimate for the thickness of the hollow cylinder, 5 feet, was large. Babylon 5 had relatively thick interior walls that would contribute to the mass of the structure that the hollow cylinder did not have. Furthermore, Babylon 5 was a station occupied by people, soil, plants, shops, et cetera.

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Bad with numbers

I'm sorry. I'm bad with numbers. I honestly can't tell if you're agreeing with me or not?

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Jim Stiles
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Re: Opening titles, season 1

The opening titles for season one said "Trapped inside two million, five-hundred-thousand tons of spinning metal, all alone in the night." It's five miles long.

I had some numbers, but don't have 'em in front of me, and have to weed through a ton of government crap to find 'em again, but suffice to say that 2.5 million tons (Let's assume he means Metric, 'cuz that's bigger) equals 2.5 megatons. Estimates are that far, far smaller Stanford Torus styled stations about half a mile in diameter would mass about twice that.

Part of it is, I think, that he picked an arbitrary number that sounded unfathomably big to him, part of it is, I think, that in the pilot the station was only like a mile long, and in the series, they decided it was 5x long.

Yeah, I got about 250 Tg (million metric ton):

Assume a perfect cylinder:
Outside length = 5.00 miles
Outside length = 26400.00 feet
Outside length = 8046.72 m
Outside diameter = 0.50 miles
Outside diameter = 2640.00 feet
Outside diameter = 804.67 m
Outside volume = 4.09E+09 m^3
Thickness = 5.00 feet
Thickness = 1.52 m
Inside volume = 4.06E+09 m^3
Steel volume = 3.25E+07 m^3
Density of steel = 7850 kg/m^3
Steel mass = 2.55E+11 kg
Steel mass = 2.55E+08 Mg
Steel mass = 254.97 Tg

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Opening titles, season 1

The opening titles for season one said "Trapped inside two million, five-hundred-thousand tons of spinning metal, all alone in the night." It's five miles long.

I had some numbers, but don't have 'em in front of me, and have to weed through a ton of government crap to find 'em again, but suffice to say that 2.5 million tons (Let's assume he means Metric, 'cuz that's bigger) equals 2.5 megatons. Estimates are that far, far smaller Stanford Torus styled stations about half a mile in diameter would mass about twice that.

Part of it is, I think, that he picked an arbitrary number that sounded unfathomably big to him, part of it is, I think, that in the pilot the station was only like a mile long, and in the series, they decided it was 5x long.

The Artist Formerly Known As Republibot 3.0

Republibot 3.0
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Bucky's a ball!

>>>I'm really into nanotech and Bucky Fuller these days. I think there is something to be learned from both of those subjects that will help us move into space without need for governments, or even big business.<<<

I love Bucky. We've mentioned his stuff several times in "This Used To Be The Future." I think he takes stuff a little further than human psychology will allow for outside of the Soviet Union (The Dymaxion house makes living on the Jupiter II look luxurious, his car is clearly unfit for humans, but it adequate for the denizens of the planet Mongo), but I love the guy's mind. Just always extrapolating in unexpected directions, building on such simple concepts. Love Bucky! Love him!

>>>Put me on the list to interview this chap sometime in late August when I'm done with school.<<<

Ok, he's yours.

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Jim Stiles
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Babylon 5's mass

R3,

B5's stated mass didn't really match what we saw onscreen, but that's a matter for another day.

I could not find out what the mass of B5 was supposed to be on the internet. What was the stated mass? And what would the mass really be for the volume that was displayed?

Thanks

10000li
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Slingatron: Thinking differently

I'm really into nanotech and Bucky Fuller these days. I think there is something to be learned from both of those subjects that will help us move into space without need for governments, or even big business.

I'm hoping.

Just off the top of my head: Has anyone ever done any reseach into a launching sling? What I envision is just a super-high powered ballista or suchlike that spins up to the point where the load is at escape velocity, and off it goes.

Well, lookie here!

http://slingatron.net

(careful, the animations can make you woozie)

Put me on the list to interview this chap sometime in late August when I'm done with school.

PS I honestly discovered this technology just by doing a search for it the moment after I thought of it. I dispensed with the original few entries in this post after that, considering them trivial.

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the turn of a friendly card

>>>His hope that SpaceX develops a system is putting a lot on one turn of a card.<<<

A card that isn't even in the deck at the moment.

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Republibot 3.0
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nothing

>>>My first response was to wonder, "What does National Public Radio have to do with space?"<<<

Nothing. And that's exactly what's wrong with them!

>>>Is there a rogue nation out there with enough nuclear devices to transport a Babylon 5 or even an ISS sized structure into low earth orbit via a nuclear pulse rocket?<<<

B5? No (B5's stated mass didn't really match what we saw onscreen, but that's a matter for another day.)

The ISS? Cake! It masses 417,000 Kg. A 1 Kiloton bomb would get it off the ground. 10 Kt bombs would *easily* get it into orbit. I'm being conservative. You could probably do it with 5.

Realistically, you could get cargo with masses of up to 10 Megatons into orbit this way. Anything above that is beyond reasonable engineering. Half that would still be way more than 10x the total mass put into space by *every* space program in the world since Sputnik.

>>>No rogue nation seems to want to occupy the high ground just yet.<<<

And just like National Public Radio, that's what's wrong with them. Small minds, small risks, small rewards.

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neorandomizer
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Dumb Move

Hi Sue.

Now being an armchair critic is one of the benefits of living in a representative republic.

Being that I am an old fart (I was 7 when Apollo 8 orbited the Moon) I have had the misfortune to see 3 Presidents destroy the Space Program. First there was Nixon who used NASA and our Moon/Mars missions as a bargaining chip to get Detente. Next was Carter who tried to kill the Shuttle dead but by then the military needed it. (It would not be until the mid 90's that we got a new heavy lift system). Now we have Obama who is telling us we will have to buy seats from the Russians for the next 15 years because he killed Bush II's plan with no real back. His hope that SpaceX develops a system is putting a lot on one turn of a card.

This is not being unfair to Obama it is just pointing out what he did. I do not know why we did it the cost is within the wastage at the Pentagon and some other big federal programs. It is a really stupid move if he needs Florida to win re-election. What he did makes no real sense and what he says about it is all double talk.

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Re: NPR

*OR* some rogue nation could built a colony on the ground and NPR it to space. Of course that would be regarded as an act of terrorism...

My first response was to wonder, "What does National Public Radio have to do with space?"

Is there a rogue nation out there with enough nuclear devices to transport a Babylon 5 or even an ISS sized structure into low earth orbit via a nuclear pulse rocket? Iran and North Korea each probably have enough weapons grade uranium to make a few bombs. It will be some time before they have nearly enough bombs. Even so, I think that Iran wants their weapons to exterminate Sunni Muslims and Jews, not to explore space. North Korea wants their bombs so that they can extort resources from the south. No rogue nation seems to want to occupy the high ground just yet.

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Hi, Sue Joan!

Hi, Sue Joan, welcome to the site! Thanks for posting!

The media is generally pretty biased, and you're absolutely right: It's more for entertainment (And propaganda) purposes than anything else.

Thing is: NASA *was* moving on with newer technology (Constellation), but Obama killed that program, and now we're not moving ahead with anything. We're not even developing a spacecraft at present, and the $10 billion we sank into developing Constellation is flushed. No return on that.

I'd like to be wrong on this, but what little I hear from other countries suggests they're all pretty mystified by the president's decisions (Over the objections of his own party, no less!)

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John Many Jars
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Hi Sue

They aren't discontinuing it to move on to newer technology, they are going to build something made from the same old technology, therefore the term, "shuttle derived".

I don't object to them moving on from the Shuttle, in fact, I think it is a good idea. I object to having billions of dollars wasted as we change direction from one Shuttle replacement to another.

Um, you will have to excuse me, but I am taken aback by the implication that I don't know what I'm talking about. This is a bit of an old obsession of mine, and I've made it my business to find out about it. I do not rely on the mainstream press for my information, either.

I guarantee you, I put more time into researching what is going on at NASA than George Bush or Barack Obama. I'm sure they both have more "important" things to do.

This is politics, this is reality, this is not about being an "armchair critic", this is about trying to get people interested and involved, so they can take back their space program, and make it work for them. If that is being an "armchair critic", then this democracy stuff is pointless.

"No matter where you go, there you are."

Sue Joan
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It's all who's fault?

So many Americans are armchair critics - first of Bush, now of Obama. And based on the very insufficient information obtained from the press which is not only lacking most of the details but often very inaccurate. ("For entertainment only"). I asked my hubby about why they were discontinuing the program and he (the wise old bird) said that they were not discontinuing but moving on with a newer technology. Like duh... but makes sense to me. :)

Sue Joan
"No passion so effectually robs the mind of all its powers of acting and reasoning as fear." -
-- Edmund Burke

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NPR

>>The only way that's going to happen is if Elon Musk, Branson or one of the other billionaires that are building launch systems pays congress and the administration to look the other way. There is to much pressure from the UN and other entities that want to stop or at lest control access to space.<<

*OR* some rogue nation could built a colony on the ground and NPR it to space. Of course that would be regarded as an act of terrorism...

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neorandomizer
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Only if

>>I maintain, rather tediously, that the next logical step is space-based industries and a permanent orbital population to support them. This gives NASA (or some subsequent organization) a clear and permanent role. Without that, we're just going to end up in this same situation again and again.<<

The only way that's going to happen is if Elon Musk, Branson or one of the other billionaires that are building launch systems pays congress and the administration to look the other way. There is to much pressure from the UN and other entities that want to stop or at lest control access to space.

The myth that mother Earth is all there is used to stop us from breaking free and changing the power dynamic on this planet. If people really understood that there is limitless energy and resources in space how would the world's governments continue to govern. The whole regulation scam only works if you limit access to energy and resources. If the only thing you had to do to get energy was to collect it from the Sun how would the government tax it and control how it was used. Solar power only really works in space but that would show what a con the whole reusable energy movement is.

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I maintain

>>>Best case scenerio, under this plan, is we end up with a HLV with nothing to do, an Orion capsule with no where to go, and SpaceX / Serria Nevada access to LEO. With no program already in progess to go some where, what then? At least with a program in place, Congress could be hit up for more money to complete it. The ISS ran massively over budget, but it got more or less finished.<<<

I maintain, rather tediously, that the next logical step is space-based industries and a permanent orbital population to support them. This gives NASA (or some subsequent organization) a clear and permanent role. Without that, we're just going to end up in this same situation again and again.

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No question

>>>I think that Bolden, and NASA are effectively in contempt of Congress. Shuttle derived HLV systems have been studied over and over again for decades. The idea that NASA can't come up with something in a reasonably short period of time is risable.<<<

There is no question in my mind that they *are* contemptuously stonewalling. There were shuttle-derived vehicles since the late 70s, all extensively studied. (One: Shuttle C, very nearly went into service). Frankly, Constellation was a shuttle-derived vehicle. There is absolutely NO excuse for this.

They just don't want it for some reason. I don't know why.

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John Many Jars
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Responses to other comments...

...yes, I think the shuttle's day is over. The shuttles were designed to last 10 years or 100 missions. None has reached 100 missions, but they are way past the 10 year mark. It was never conceved that NASA would operate them for so long.

It makes little sense to cancel them before a replacement is found. This only makes sense because of funding issues. It is irresponsible of all parties to retire the shuttle before the replacement is ready, just to save a buck or two.

All the palava about giving a shuttle to private industry, having a fleet of seven, flying scores of missions a year, bringing down the clost of space flight, was all meaningless retoric to get the program approved, and everyone knew it. It was the only way the OMB under Nixon would sign off.

Off the top of my head, we've poured over a TRILLION dollars in the last decade on two wars. We should have been able to redirect a few billion to maintain access to space.

Best case scenerio, under this plan, is we end up with a HLV with nothing to do, an Orion capsule with no where to go, and SpaceX / Serria Nevada access to LEO. With no program already in progess to go some where, what then? At least with a program in place, Congress could be hit up for more money to complete it. The ISS ran massively over budget, but it got more or less finished.

...so, go China. Some other country needs to do something to spook America... back into a new space race.

"No matter where you go, there you are."

John Many Jars
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Follow Up

The frustration flared up today during a House committee hearing with NASA Administrator Charles Bolden as the sole witness, or sole target. "We have waited for answers that have not come," Science, Space and Technology Committee Chairman Ralph Hall, R-Texas, told Bolden. "We have run out of patience. ... I would like to point out today that the committee reserves the right to open an investigation into these continued delays and join the investigation initiated by the Senate."

http://cosmiclog.msnbc.msn.com/_news/2011/07/12/7070219-is-the-space-eff...

...and I think they should. I'm heartened by the fact that Congress is pissed. This is turning into a huge mess, and Charlie Bolden is at the center of it. It's almost... almost as if the administration is deliberatley stonewalling, because they really don't want to build this system... and they think that if they keep kicking the ball away, Congress will give up and go for simply having private LEO taxis.

Personally, I think that Bolden, and NASA are effectively in contempt of Congress. Shuttle derived HLV systems have been studied over and over again for decades. The idea that NASA can't come up with something in a reasonably short period of time is risable.

"No matter where you go, there you are."

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I'm too interested in this conversation to do real work today!

>>>Now with airline deregulation in the 80's we found that the economic model the airlines operated under was not sound and to this day it is almost imposable to turn a profit running an airline.<<<

And *THAT* is dependent upon actually having somewhere to go to.

>>>Remember back in the 20's there was a need to spend money on aircraft development for defense but no political will to fund it. So the US government encouraged private airlines which needed planes which created the aircraft designs and industry we needed to help win WWII. It was an American answer to the European model of forming state owned companies<<<

It keeps coming back to this: fighting for government scraps, or actually developing a space-based economy. Doing the latter depends on two things (1) an actual industrial capacity in space, something you can make there that you can't do here, or that can't be done here (or done here well) for environmental reasons. Energy generation is a good potential cash crop, but let's not undersell the value of perfect ball bearings created in zero G by the billions. They'd be almost frictionless! And a hundred other things besides. And (2) Actual *colonization* to work the space industries. These two things give spacecraft a place to go and a reason to go there. Build an economy, an actual real economy, and all this becomes a non-issue. Don't build an economy, and we're done.

Well, we're done anyway, aren't we?

Pure Research is a stupid thing to build a space program on. I mean, pure research didn't keep us on the moon, did it? Pure research might get people to Mars eventually (Not Americans, though), but it ain't gonna' keep 'em there. Colonization and industry, a great big 17th century land-grab competition is a much better reason to do stuff. May not be as noble as NASA's 50 years of utter pointlessness, but greed is a much better motivator than nobility anyways. It's money, money, money makes the world(s) go 'round.

All of 'em.

The Artist Formerly Known As Republibot 3.0

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Airmail and the future

>>And exactly how "Private" those companies are is a matter of debate, since they're all scrambling for government contracts, and *not* scrambling to expand their production base to include private and corporate consumers. If your only customer is the federal government, really how "Private" are you? You're still being paid for by the taxpayers, it's just less efficient.<<

They are using the airmail model; back in the day the US government gave the early airlines mail contracts. There was no real market for airmail if one needed to get a message to someone quickly they called or sent a telegram. But since other countries were funding national airlines owned by the government the US felt it had to do something.

The government created a market for private companies to fill until there developed a real market. Now with airline deregulation in the 80's we found that the economic model the airlines operated under was not sound and to this day it is almost imposable to turn a profit running an airline.

Remember back in the 20's there was a need to spend money on aircraft development for defense but no political will to fund it. So the US government encouraged private airlines which needed planes which created the aircraft designs and industry we needed to help win WWII. It was an American answer to the European model of forming state owned companies.

SheldonCooper
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I Concur

I must agree with R3. That video is highly suspect. NASA only current plans are to spend lots of money and do absolutely nothing. The US space program is deader than Jacob Marley with no signs of life until my kids (5, 2.5 and 7 mos) are in high school, at the absolute soonest

One lab accident away from being a supervillain! Bazinga!

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What?

>>>The shuttle needed be be either updated or gotten rid of. The thing couldn't even compare to a modern laptop.<<<

Computer ability isn't really relevant. Apollo went to the moon with a computer less powerful than your average calculator. I do agree the Shuttle was a P.O.S, and should have been retired 20 years ago (As was the original intent) but you generally don't get rid of the old car until you've bought a new one. We haven't done that.

>>>The orion isn't dead, but NASA seems to be on the right path now more so than back then.<<<

Orion and Constellation and Altair are dead, dead, deadily dead. They really and truely are. Check wiki, not some guy babbling about sitcoms on Youtube. Or check NASA itself. There's some noise about using Orion as a lifeboat for the ISS, but no one expects this to happen since there's no budget for it, and we've got no means of getting it up there.

>>>Deep Space Exploration! Hellz ya! this takes some time, but the goal that is needed. The CEV has now basically become the new crew module. And Ares V is being returned to in a HLV (I don't see why they might not just choose the Ares V as the HLV choice, like what they did with the CEV)<<<

None of this is going to happen. Obama opposes space. He killed Constellation over the objections of his own party, and flushed ten BILLION dollars down the drain. This is not my first barbecue, I know a talking factory when I hear it.

Also, Constellation was intended for deep space exploration. I don't understand why no one can wrap their brains around that. It was intended to freakin' go to Mars! (Eventually)The *ONLY* actual plan NASA's ever had to go to Mars was constellation. So we give up the car, and refuse to buy a new one, and somehow we're supposed to magically get where we're going?

>>>And if you think about it, the space shuttle was there to give technology to private corporations to eventually make a private shuttle replacement. Back after Apollo ended, nobody would have been able to do private space exploration.<<<

There was never, never, never, never any talk of a private shuttle replacement in its design or operational phases. Never, never, never, never, never. The Shuttle was intended to give regular, easy access to space - 50 to 100 launches a year. It utterly crapped out on that. The development of private launch firms is an entirely unrelated phenomenon that basically arose from the long waits for launches from NASA and Cnes, etc.

And exactly how "Private" those companies are is a matter of debate, since they're all scrambling for government contracts, and *not* scrambling to expand their production base to include private and corporate consumers. If your only customer is the federal government, really how "Private" are you? You're still being paid for by the taxpayers, it's just less efficient.

The Artist Formerly Known As Republibot 3.0

nwkeys01
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Disagree

The shuttle needed be be either updated or gotten rid of. The thing couldn't even compare to a modern laptop.

The orion isn't dead, but NASA seems to be on the right path now more so than back then.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=aml4u8JMn5A&feature=player_embedded

Deep Space Exploration! Hellz ya! this takes some time, but the goal that is needed. The CEV has now basically become the new crew module. And Ares V is being returned to in a HLV (I don't see why they might not just choose the Ares V as the HLV choice, like what they did with the CEV)

And if you think about it, the space shuttle was there to give technology to private corporations to eventually make a private shuttle replacement. Back after Apollo ended, nobody would have been able to do private space exploration.

Republibot 3.0
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LBJ was prescient

"It's unfortunate, but the way the American people are, now that they have developed all of this capability, instead of taking advantage of it, they'll probably just piss it all away."

President Lyndon Banes Johnson
Speaking to Astronaut Walt Cunningham regarding the Apollo program, prior to the launch of Apollo 7 in 1968.

We've actually managed to piss it away *twice* now. First with Apollo, now with the Shuttle.

The Artist Formerly Known As Republibot 3.0

neorandomizer
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Death of the West

Today the last Shuttle was placed into orbit and with it goes the last strides of greatness.

Future historians will draw a line through this date and say this is the high water mark of western civilization and the United States of America. For no real reason we like a past Chinese Emperor have burned our fleet and declared that there is nothing of importance outside.

We now have decided that just surviving and maintaining comfort is more important than striving for a bigger and better tomorrow. It will be for others to either take our species to the stars or let us die in our own waste in the nest.

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Functional Overlap

>>>We learned the wrong lesson from the Manhattan Project .<<<

How to win the war and lose the peace?

In his defense, Chester Nimitz basically all-but-invented nuclear power as a Naval, and eventually civilian concern. I don't think he was opposed to science per se, I think he just wanted to have very practical applications. Definitely he was opposed to exploration.

What you say is true, though. There is no modern military equivalent of the Lewis and Clark expedition, or Perry at the pole, or what have you. And, yeah, there probably needs to be. More than that, though: Homesteading. Space needs to be a place we live, not just visit occasionally to learn trivia that the taxpayers don't care about.

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neorandomizer
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A Money Sink

>>I think a civilian space agency was the right thing at the time - the Soviet one was entirely military, and it was a nice display of our values as a nation that ours wasn't military. <<

Its was the right policy done for the wrong reason which in the end made it halfhearted.

>>The downside of a military program, like Nimitz said of the navy when he killed the Trieste project, is that it's not a scientific organization.<<

Nimitz was a great war time Admiral but he was wrong here. The Navy had in the past been the Nation's scientific agency where it came to the ocean and exploring the poles. Just as the Army were the Nation's civil engineers and surveyors who explored the west before it was opened for settlement. All this was changed when the Federal Government became a jobs program.

The Cold War also warped the way we looked at things we became addicted to "Big Science". Which helped create our bloated overly specialized collection of agencies and departments. We learned the wrong lesson from the Manhattan Project .

The NOAA and NASA have redundant Earth science missions. NOAA also does the oceanography the Navy used to do. This would be ok if it was funded properly but the NSF also duplicates some of the ocean and weather research and causes funding gaps. And I do not want to get into how Fish and Wildlife, EPA, NOAA and the BLM all butt heads over research dollars that study the same-things for different reasons.

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U.S.S.F.

I think a civilian space agency was the right thing at the time - the Soviet one was entirely military, and it was a nice display of our values as a nation that ours wasn't military.

That said, civilian agencies are too much at the behest of the civilian government, which tends to be pretty capricious. We *need* to have an independent military space agency (Combine all the overlapping assets, form a U.S.S.F. as you suggested) to maintain access to space while goofballs like Carter and Obama jerk around with the civilian stuff.

The downside of a military program, like Nimitz said of the navy when he killed the Trieste project, is that it's not a scientific organization.

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neorandomizer
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U.S Space Force?

I am sure there is a Four Star somewhere that is glad NASA is dieing so the space program can be shifted to the Pentagon where it belongs.

The Air Force has never forgiven NASA and congress for sidelining them and there seems to be a fair amount of schadenfreude about the end of the Shuttle Program. Remember Clementine the first real moon mission in years was a SDI test of sensors and NASA was asked to help for the PR value. Also remember there seemed to be a little to much info let out on the secrete X-37B mission. (The USAF twisting the knife?)The Navy's ONR had never truly ended there space program. (The ISS main backup module was built by the Navy.)

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Politics

>>This is all par for the course, the US government has never really wanted to be in space from the beginning. <<<

Yeah, the government's position on space has always been curious. Sometimes they're extremely proprietary, sometimes they seem to want to expand it, sometimes they're afraid our expanding it will be a political liability. Mixed signals at best, utter rejection at worst (Carter and Carter II: Obama).

I do think the Bushes were both legitimately interested in space. I'll go so far as to say that Bush I recognized the disappointing limitations of the Shuttle program, and wanted to have something that could do more versatile stuff in the short term ("Let's go to the moon!") and could be used to phase out the shuttle in the long term. I think in both cases, they just didn't have the political clout to pull it off, and while it was something they wanted, it was a B-list priority, not an A-list one. B-lists get cut when opposition comes along.

It's hard to explain the need for an aggressive space program to a scientifically illiterate population.

The Artist Formerly Known As Republibot 3.0

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get your priorities straight

<<>>

That's the exact reason the UK used in 1977 to justify shutting down their space program. They claimed they'd get back to it someday soon when the economic problems were solved. Well, here we are 34 years later, and they still don't have a space program. And in that intervening generation, there were two HUGE economic booms that could easily have supported a space program.

Nope. You kill these programs, and they never come back.

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The party's over, says the girl

It's done for us. We're out of it for at least a decade, probably more assuming apathy and the economy don't recover.

Russia and China will continue, and I think China will become more ambitious once India enters the Manned Space club. The question is whether or not any of 'em will do anything noteworthy. India and China both have made a lot of noise about going to the moon. Russia hasn't made much nose about anything.

So the space race continues at a slow pace, but we've decided not to run.

The Artist Formerly Known As Republibot 3.0

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the Economist wants to know

The Economist wants to know if the Space Age is over:

http://www.economist.com/economist-asks/end-space-age

I told them yes, but I was unable to express any caveats.

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We never really were serious about space

This is all par for the course, the US government has never really wanted to be in space from the beginning. The Eisenhower administration only wanted spy satellites and was forced first to orbit a science satellite then to form NASA and authorize manned flight.

Only JFK and LBJ out of all top American politicians believed in NASA and the manned program. Both had different political and personal reasons but they were more complex than just the Cold War and creating jobs for the Southern States. Alas JFK was killed and LBJ was consumed by the fires of Vietnam.

Reagan was a big cheerleader for the Shuttle because he liked the symbolism and he knew it was the only heavy lift option left to him by the Nixon and Cater budget cutters. In the 80's manned flight was one of the many pressure points Reagan used to kill the USSR.

So in the half century of space flight there were only three Presidents that believed in the program. Bush like his father only supported NASA because they thought it was one of the things a superpower was expected to do. They did not have the fire in the belly like JFK and LBJ for the future of space and Reagan needed it as a pressure point.

An interesting historical note the Army's ballistic missile program headed by von Braun had orders straight from the White House not to orbit anything. The Explorer One satellite and its Redstone launcher were both prepared on the sly by JPL and von Braun. We could have had a satellite in orbit a full year before the Soviets but it was not allowed.

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i wouldn't

I don't know Space really isn't nor should it be a priority right now.

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Article

Hi Sheldon!

Thanks for the kind words, and pointing out the C-in-C thing, I think that's been fixed now. If anyone is interested, the video of the President talking up the NASA workforce, promising to save everyone's jobs, and pledging his support for accelerating (rather than cancelling) the current program is here:

http://www.wired.com/wiredscience/2008/08/obama-revokes-f/

Those pesky politicians, they will say anything.

"No matter where you go, there you are."

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The Point

>>While the article is an excellent summary of Obama's management of NASA, the viewer needs to understand that the author is definitely not a Republican.<<

Well, that's kinda the point, isn't it? Obama is cheesing off voters on both sides, not just with NASA, but with ObamaCare and Lybia and just so much that it is hard to see him as a shoo-in in 2012. The question now is, will he have cheesed off enough on the other side to matter.

One lab accident away from being a supervillain! Bazinga!

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the author

While the article is an excellent summary of Obama's management of NASA, the viewer needs to understand that the author is definitely not a Republican.

Obama's mismanagement of NASA should lose him some votes in 2012. Unfortunately, NASA and space exploration are probably not high priorities among most of those who voted for Obama in 2008.

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Great!

Great article. We've been following this death of the space program every step of the way, and it's just shameful the way everything has played out. We went in 4 years from going to Mars to going to the video store to rent Star Trek if we want to see space. Shameful. I only have one criticism:

>>Currently, NASA seems to be trying to run down the clock,
presumably at the C and C’s orders.<<

That should be C-in-C for Commander-in-Chief. Like Editor-in-Chief. Other than that minor little detail, though, bravo and let's hope this as well as ObamaCare has left a bad enough taste in the mouths of voters next November!

One lab accident away from being a supervillain! Bazinga!

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