Skip to Content

OPINION: Why Marvel Knocked Avengers Out of the Park and Why Warner Bros. Will Ruin Justice League

SheldonCooper's picture

The Avengers is currently the third highest grossing film of all time behind Gone With the Wind at #1 and Avatar at #2. It should also be noted that Avatar's and Gone's numbers include DVD and television revenue (and in Gone's case that includes more than 70 years of revenue), so a good case can be made for Avengers being the most successful film of all time. Of course, it didn't take too much longer after Avengers hit the ONE BILLION dollar mark that Warner Bros. started talking about resurrecting the Justice League movie that was aborted back in 2007 or 2008. But why was Avengers so successful and can Warners possibly replicate this success?

The answer, of course, is no. Justice League will be an abysmal failure, which is a shame because I'm a DC Comics fan and prefer the Justice League to the Avengers (which is basically the same thing just with a different stable of characters). The reason Warner Bros. and DC Comics is going to screw it up isn't because the characters are bad. It's because of two reasons, really:
1. I don't think ANYONE, including Marvel, by the way, will be able to replicate this successfully, really. I'm not saying Avengers was a fluke at all, because I don't think it was. But Marvel hit a certain number of the right notes so perfectly that it would be near impossible to replicate. And...
2. Warner Bros. isn't taking the concept seriously, at the very least not as seriously as Marvel did. They're just looking for the big payout Marvel and Disney got and when money is your ONLY driving force behind a project, as I truly believe it is here, you're destined to fail. You have to be passionate about ANY endeavor to be successful and profitable in that endeavor. Money should never be the goal, at least not primarily, ESPECIALLY in a creative endeavor. But Warner Bros. doesn't understand that.

So, why was Avengers so successful? Well, as I said, Marvel hit all the right notes and made all the right decisions out of the gate. It started with Iron Man, which was a superb movie. Marvel was focused on Iron Man and making Iron Man work by itself. Avengers was always a goal, but Iron Man was about making Iron Man good. Avengers was just a teaser at the end. A teaser a lot of people missed at first because they did such a good job of keeping that nugget under wraps. Also, most people came away from Iron Man (I know I did) not really expecting Avengers to get made. I saw the Nick Fury segment as a joke. I really did. But it planted the seeds of hope.

Likewise, a few months later, when The Incredible Hulk came out, Marvel's focus was squarely on the Hulk. Then Tony Stark appeared and talked about putting a team together. That's when it really hit me. This was happening. The Avengers was all but in the can. It was nerdgasm times infinity. I mean, this was ballsy. Remember, we had been told for years that a group movie as massive as a Justice League or an Avengers was just unfilmable. No one will ever make a huge superhero team-up movie because it will require introducing too many characters. No one ever even thought of crossing the movies over like the comics do. Not until Marvel's Avengers Initiative.

And that brings up probably the biggest reason Avengers worked. Marvel introduced every major team member in his own solo film (or in the case of Fury and Black Widow, developed them in Iron Man 2, after Stark had already been developed). The point is, you go into The Avengers already knowing all the major players. The only character truly introduced was Hawkeye, who just had a cameo in Thor. And every solo movie ended with a teaser leading up to the Avengers. The anticipation was building. There was suddenly not just a desire to see this movie, there was a burning NEED to see The Avengers. It had become a requirement. People were now in the position where if it came down to going to The Avengers or paying your light bill, you were going to The Avengers.

All of these things made for a potential blockbuster already. Add to that the amazing decision in hiring Joss Whedon, a television creator who had only directed ONE feature film before (I know that sounds insane, but it's true. Serenity and The Avengers, that's it). Joss made all of the right decisions in The Avengers, and I went more into that in my review of The Avengers, if you've read that. But Joss made all the right decisions. He found the exact glue to hold all of these elements he had been given together. It was like a puzzle. He was given the pieces and assembled them (no pun intended, I swear) into the perfect picture.

Now, this was a once in a thousand lifetimes success. Justice League can't live up to it, because I don't think Avengers 2 can live up to it. But to make matters worse, Warners and DC already has the blueprint. Marvel has written down the algorithm, and Warners has already announced that they don't intend to follow it. Rather than building upon what's been done in Batman and Green Lantern and what will be done in Superman, and building further with a Flash and Wonder Woman (Aquaman can be the one they introduce in the Justice League movie) they just want to rush right into Justice League. They want to shoehorn Superman and Green Lantern into it and then introduce everyone else in Justice League and spin those characters off from that. So Justice League will now be tasked with introducing a new Batman, Wonder Woman, Flash and (presumably) Aquaman. Basically, they intend to do what everyone has said since forever would be impossible. And it isn't going to work.

I want to see the Justice League movie SO badly. But I am willing to wait for Warner Bros. to take the time to do it properly, and they're not going to. They've already said they won't. Who cares if you're just going to be doing what Marvel did? It worked! Do what worked! Don't do a watered down version of what worked, because it will feel watered down. And for the love of Rao, PLEASE don't release Justice League in 2015 (which is the current plan). Avengers 2 is coming out in 2015 and it will kick this watered down version of the Justice League's butt. If you release Justice League in 2015 you are going to guarantee it will be a failure, which, incidentally, will guarantee that we won't see a Flash movie or a new Batman or a Superman 2 or a Green Lantern 2. We'll be stuck with nothing but adaptations of Vertigo titles, like a Swamp Thing remake or something stupid.

Ok, I've ranted. Let's talk about it. What do you guys think? Let me know in the comments section directly south of this sentence.

Comment viewing options

Select your preferred way to display the comments and click "Save settings" to activate your changes.
Kevin Long
Offline
Joined: 08/13/2012
Ah crap.

Ah crap, you're right. I'm not as clever as I think I am. Or, more properly, Mel Brooks isn't as clever as I think he is.

Kevin Long
(The Artist Formerly Known as Republibot 3.0)

Mama Fisi
Mama Fisi's picture
Offline
Joined: 11/11/2011
Are You Sure...?

I thought Korman played Hedley Lamarr, and everybody kept calling him "Hedy" Lamarr, like the actress.

You must be thinking of the Slim Pickens character.

"The conniving State Attorney General Hedley Lamarr (Harvey Korman) wants to buy the land along the new railroad route cheaply by driving out the townspeople. He sends a gang of thugs, led by his flunky assistant Taggart (Slim Pickens), to scare them away, prompting the townsfolk to demand that Governor William J. Le Petomane (Mel Brooks) appoint a new sheriff. The Attorney General convinces the dim-witted Le Petomane to select Bart (Cleavon Little), a black railroad worker who was about to be hanged." --Wiki

Masquerading as a normal person day after day is exhausting.
Magpie House Comics
http://www.hirezfox.com/km/

Kevin Long
Offline
Joined: 08/13/2012
What's in a name?

>>Like Harvey Korman did in "Blazing Saddles"<<

Here's an in joke so far in that I didn't get it until a few months ago: "Atlas Shrugged" revolves around the Taggart train line, the largest one in the US, and the only one still running transcontinental routes. Several times, Dagney Taggart reminisces about her grandfather (Or maybe great grandfather) who started the company, and was a completely unapologetic robber-baron in the late 19th century.

Harvey Korman's "Mister Taggart" character from "Blazing Saddles" was supposed to be Dagney's grandfather (Or great grandfather, I forget.)

Kevin Long
(The Artist Formerly Known as Republibot 3.0)

kelloggs2066
kelloggs2066's picture
Offline
Joined: 09/04/2011
Darkseid

If you do it as a comedy, you could have "Darkseid" constantly having to correct pronunciations, Like Harvey Korman did in "Blazing Saddles" and "History of the World, Part 1."

Lackey: "Darkseed! Darkseed!"

Darkseid: (*sigh, eyeroll, dusgusted drawl*) "That's...DarkSIDE!"

21st Century Fox
The Future's So Bright You Gotta Wear Shades
http://techfox.comicgenesis.com/

Kevin Long
Offline
Joined: 08/13/2012
Superman V: (dis)Armed and (Remarkably un)Fabulous

>>Remember Superman Returns? The initial reaction by the studio was, maybe the world isn't ready for a new Superman yet. That couldn't be further from the truth. Opening weekend on Superman Returns proved that people DID want a new Superman, and have since the 90's, but we didn't want a whiney emo Superman. If Justice League bombs, because THEY screwed it up, we'll be getting nothing but Vertigo movies for the forseeable future.<<

Oh, it's worse than that. The actual initial script was pretty great, with General Zod returning and attempting to turn Earth into Kyrpton Mark II. (Which even makes logical sense as the new Kryptonians would have superpowers, something they didn't have on their original world.) Warners was all "Well, nobody knows who Zod is, so remove him and put in in Lex, since everyone knows who he is." So they adapted the script basically by laying it on a table, laying a picture of Gene Hackman on top of it, and then banging nails through the pile. Terrible. Made no sense. Also, Lois was badly miscast.

That said, I *did* in fact like the take on Superman. I liked Supes a little bit older, and a little bit sadder. I like that he left earth trying to regain the life he never had, and came back to earth to find that he'd missed the life he could have had here. The scene with him falling from the heavens in front of the crowd, and Ma Kent holding vigil outside the hospital, not even being able to go in and see her own son as he was dying - gave me chills. Lois' fiance kind of turns the tide, too. I like the notion that an average guy can make a difference just through common human decency. There are a LOT of really good moments, they're just trapped in a really boring movie.

So: go with the originally intended script, and trim maybe 30 minutes from the runtime, and it really WOULD have been the best superman ever.

Alas: Warners Doesn't Have A Clue.

Heck, IIRC, "Batman Begins" was originally pitched as a prequel to the Tim Burton movie from '88. It was never intended as such, it's just WB couldn't understand the concept any other way, or so I've heard.

Kevin Long
(The Artist Formerly Known as Republibot 3.0)

SheldonCooper
SheldonCooper's picture
Online
Joined: 10/02/2010
Darkseid

First of all, the villain doesn't NEED to be pre-established. It helps, but if you're not wasting time developing your heroes, the villain is easy. Plus, some people ARE at least a little familiar with Darkseid thanks to Smallville and many FANBOYS don't even know how to say the dude's name (if one more nerd, who thinks he's oh so smart, tries to correct me and say it's pronounced Dark-seed, he's getting punched in the nose and if I'm in uniform he might get shot). But I digress...

>>On the other hand, there's a LOT of Justice League material already out in the public eye, in the form of cartoons, so maybe putting it off until 2015 (two and a half to three years) might not be a good idea. Strike while the iron's hot.<<

Well, it takes 2-3 years to make one of these movies, so 2015 is literally Warner Bros getting this thing out as soon as humanly possible. For a big special effects movies, 3 years is pretty much immediately. Now, with little-to-no prep work, 5 years is better to do it RIGHT, so they've already made mistake #1: rushing the product to the shelves. That never works out. Star Trek: The Motion Picture, anyone?

>>They *will* screw this up. And they'll never understand why.<<

Never in a bazillion years. They'll blame the material. Remember Superman Returns? The initial reaction by the studio was, maybe the world isn't ready for a new Superman yet. That couldn't be further from the truth. Opening weekend on Superman Returns proved that people DID want a new Superman, and have since the 90's, but we didn't want a whiney emo Superman. If Justice League bombs, because THEY screwed it up, we'll be getting nothing but Vertigo movies for the forseeable future.

What's funny about this whole thing is that they did the Justice League right on Smallville. The "Justice" episode in season 6 was great and the "Absolute Justice" special was equally great. The costumes were kind of lame in "Justice" but that's just because they tried to make everyone look like Green Arrow, which was dumb. Really, though, Flash/Impulse was the only one who looked pretty stupid in the hoodie.

One lab accident away from being a supervillain! Bazinga!

Kevin Long
Offline
Joined: 08/13/2012
They're not that smart

>>Presupposing that WB is smarter than we all know it is....<<

That's the rub. They're not that smart. Babylon 5: a watershed show. A game changer. The first American SF show that was really aimed at grownups, and not just a retread of some older show. And it had a *lot* of fans.

Is it syndicated? On Hulu? Streaming on Netflix? Are there spinoffs? Where's that movie we were promised? Are there toys, books, comics? Is there any flag waving out there to even keep public awareness of the franchise? Heck, WB won't even let anyone do any fanfilms without shutting 'em down.

Superheroes are even worse: you'll recall the original concept behind the Green Lantern was as a Jack Black adventure/comedy thing, until public outrage from the fans confused them, and they cancelled the whole thing.

HOW many times has a JL movie been abandoned?

I do agree with you: DC heroes are, were, and hopefully evermore shall be more iconic and visible than their whiney, neurotic, large-headed Marvel counterparts. It *would* be possible to do a JL movie and use that as a way to introduce lesser-known heroes, now that you point it out. (Wouldn't have thought of that on my own) But I don't believe for a moment they've got the smarts to do it.

Also: grab 10 grown ups at random today and ask 'em who 'Darkseid' is. Grab a hundred. Nobody knows. Now ask the same ten or hundred or thousand people and ask 'em who the Joker or Riddler or Lex Luthor are. They know. But Darkseid? Might as well ask people about the Micronauts.

(Baron Karza rules!)

Kevin Long
(The Artist Formerly Known as Republibot 3.0)

Republibot 2.0
Offline
Joined: 07/11/2011
There is a way...

Presupposing that WB is smarter than we all know it is....

It is possible to turn the Marvel formula on its head and succeed.
First off-Everybody already knows Batman, Superman and Wonder Woman. They have a bit of knowledge of Flash and Green Lantern. They might know who Cyborg is if their kids watched Teen Titans. And they know the theme song to Superfriends.

Sooooo.

Leverage what is already common knowledge. Show the Justice League already formed and in action. Have the Big Three portrayed according to people already perceive them. It's not hard, they're archetypes. The others don't need huge amounts of backstory- Flash is fast, Green Lantern has a magic ring. (Sheldon, technobabble aside, it's freakin' magic).

Although I'm rather 'meh' over the Justice League relaunch's execution in the funnybooks, I agree with Geoff John's structure. Start the League in the middle of a huge conflict, have that lead to the creation of a new hero (Firestorm, Cyborg, Stargirl...heck. Booster Gold if you can swing it.) That new character becomes the viewpoint character and introduces us to the League from the inside, and becomes the catalyst for the larger threat.

As with the main characters, the threat should be familiar and singular. The one that springs to mind is Darkseid. Again, we leverage familiarity. Although a 'Legion of Doom' may be more recognizable, developing a dozen misaligned misanthropes would overwhelm a trilogy, much less a single movie.

One point you made en passant is that Marvel HAD to do it this way to succeed because these are all second tier characters in the Avengers. No Spider-Man, no X-Men... they all had to be introduced in a series of films (not to mention the fundamental concepts. There was NO time spent on the Cosmic Cube ...excuse me, Tesseract (because that was covered a teensy bit in Iron Man and a lot in Thor and Captain America) or what S.H.I.E.L.D. was... this groundwork had to be done in the prequel movies, or Avengers would've collapsed under it's own weight.

With Justice League, the groundwork IS ALREADY IN THE PUBLIC ZEITGEIST. Take advantage of that! Lengthy Exposition Is Not Necessary.

In addition- if you go Big Time Kirby and you can get it to market ahead of Avengers II (now with added Daredevil!), you can steal Thanos' thunder.

After JLA, you have some groundwork laid for the future exploitation of the lesser known heroes, and a base from which to build new Big Three franchises.

It almost writes itself...

Mama Fisi
Mama Fisi's picture
Offline
Joined: 11/11/2011
Marketing

On the other hand, there's a LOT of Justice League material already out in the public eye, in the form of cartoons, so maybe putting it off until 2015 (two and a half to three years) might not be a good idea. Strike while the iron's hot.

I was in the Walmart this afternoon and while shopping for a gift for my soon-to-be-three-years-old niece, I saw a playset of Justice League characters--done as the chubby little Fisher Price Little People dolls! This line has got a bazillion different characters in it (farm animals, zoo animals, Noah's Ark, space ships, and everything in between) but seeing a chunky little Batman, Superman, Flash, et als. was kind of mind-boggling. I mean, these toys are aimed at toddlers--what toddler knows ANYTHING about comic-book heroes? (Clearly they're designed to entice the parents, and thereby get a future audience.)

Don't believe me? Have a look:

http://www.fisher-price.com/en_US/brands/littlepeople/products/63175

http://www.fisher-price.com/en_US/brands/littlepeople/products/63177

http://www.fisher-price.com/en_US/brands/littlepeople/products/63176

(This site did not have the five-pack listed, BTW.)

Masquerading as a normal person day after day is exhausting.
Magpie House Comics
http://www.hirezfox.com/km/

Kevin Long
Offline
Joined: 08/13/2012
I pretty much agree

I pretty much agree with everything Sheldon has said. WB/DC has always done really good on TV, but they've never seemed to have a clue how to treat their superhero properties. Even with the success of Batman, they've managed to piss it away. They *will* screw this up. And they'll never understand why.

Kevin Long
(The Artist Formerly Known as Republibot 3.0)

SheldonCooper
SheldonCooper's picture
Online
Joined: 10/02/2010
Anticipation is the Key

>>t seems to me that by making a stand-alone film for each of the Avengers, before coming out with the full-on adventure story, helped to build an audience and to fuel anticipation in the series.<<

THAT'S the point, right there. They aren't building up the ANTICIPATION! Now, while I agree that the Justice League characters don't need the in-depth introductions that the Avengers characters needed (come on, before the Avengers more non-comic book readers knew Superman, Batman and Wonder Woman than Iron Man, Captain America and Thor), and while I also agree that The Avengers' success could never again be fully replicated, I still think it's foolish for Warner Bros. to not even TRY to follow the successful formula and just rush to get the movie out. They're not going to EVER get the payout Avengers got, but by rushing it they're guaranteeing that it won't even come close. Also, by releasing the film in 2015, the same year as Avengers 2, they're just shooting themselves in the foot and guaranteeing that Justice League will not only not live up to expectations, but will be a colossal failure.

Ok, case in point: Ghostbusters 2. Ghostbusters 2 was a genuinely good movie. It was a wonderful sequel to the original. However, it was a financial failure. And it was the sequel to the what was, five years before, the most successful movie of the year. So why did it fail? Because it was released opposite Tim Burton's Batman, which was the most ANTICIPATED movie of the decade. Everyone saw Batman in 1989 and everyone will be seeing Avengers 2 in 2015 and Justice League doesn't stand a chance. Push it back one more year, get Flash out first, take a little more time on it and Justice League stands a much better chance of not de-railing the entire DC Comics stable of characters.

One lab accident away from being a supervillain! Bazinga!

neorandomizer
neorandomizer's picture
Offline
Joined: 06/27/2009
My Bad

Yes it's JJ Abrams, proofreading for the win.

Republibot 4.0
Republibot 4.0's picture
Offline
Joined: 07/09/2012
Lots Of Subject Matter

It seems to me that by making a stand-alone film for each of the Avengers, before coming out with the full-on adventure story, helped to build an audience and to fuel anticipation in the series. It's the way chapters in a book build on each other, toward a climax.

To do it in reverse--to come out with the ensemble adventure, then spin off half a dozen "origins" stories--would be a weaker way to approach it.

However, since most of the characters from the Justice League have already had numerous films made about them, perhaps the audience is already familiar enough with them that presenting the ensemble picture wouldn't be all that disastrous an idea--if they get the right director (did you mean JJ Abrams, Neo...?) The characters from Avengers are not as familiar to the movie-going public as are Superman, Batman, etc. Therefore they would need to have their own films first, so the public could get to know them and care about them. Plus, most of them had to be "updated" from their original WWII-era settings. There's no time to do that properly if you dump them all into an ensemble film first--you'll confuse new viewers and alienate old fans. "Why is Captain America doing *that?* He was never like that in the comic books!!"

The Avengers had a LOT of material to cover, thus we get the Wagnerian Cycle-style format of the movies, rather than doing the big blockbuster and endless spin-offs with the characters.

Considering the JLA franchises, though, I'm not sure how you'd decide who was the main character, and who would be the supporting character, since Superman and Batman both are top-of-the-marquee stars in their own right. And then there are the JLA members who haven't yet gotten films, like Aquaman...and I can't remember if Flash and Wonder Woman have had films, at least recently, so there's be some tedious character-building needed. With, what, seven or eight characters, you've already got enough material for at least two films, and I think Peter Jackson's still kind of busy with his big epic fairytale.

neorandomizer
neorandomizer's picture
Offline
Joined: 06/27/2009
Who can produce/direct it

Maybe they can get JJ Abrams to do the Justice League movie. There is a chance he would not totally trash it.

Comment viewing options

Select your preferred way to display the comments and click "Save settings" to activate your changes.

Status

Bleeding Heart does not have a status.

Latest Status Updates

Kevin Long This Just In: Jimmy Hoffa is still missing! (Obviously, it's a slow news day) 1 hour ago
Ginrummy Scifi author Ian Banks died today, after a battle with cancer. 1 week ago
Republibot 4.0 @SheldonCooper : Sorry to hear that! I hope you feel better soon. 2 weeks ago
SheldonCooper I've been violently ill this weekend, so my review of After Earth will be a week late. But it is coming 2 weeks ago
Ginrummy Ray Harryhausen, Visual Effects Master, Dies Aged 92 6 weeks ago
SheldonCooper Iron Man 3 review will be live first thing in the morning! 6 weeks ago
SheldonCooper @Kevin Long Second, it reminds us to never stop looking to the future and trying to make it better. Everything Trek's ever stood for 6 weeks ago