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"If I Wanted America To Fail..."

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One thing he doesn't mention, but I think it's important, is that we've staunchly opposed science for nearly a generation now. I was in college when we wanted to build the world's largest supercollider. Congress slapped it down, knowing full well that Europe was about to build one, and that all meaningful physics work was going to come out of the EU for the forseeable future. They didn't care. They opposed the Hubble, which was saved only by public outcry. They oppose the James Webb telescope, which there will be no public outcry to save, since it's harder to explain than Hubble. No pretty pictures. If that's killed, then basically nothing meaningful is going to come out of astrophysics for the forseeable future, until someone like China builds an equivalent.

Apollo was killed three missions early, the follow-on programs were killed on the drawing board, the shuttle was supposed to be replaced by a better, safer follow up by the mid-1990s. There as supposed to be a US/Soviet space station up by 1977! The ONLY manned Mars program that the US *EVER* had was Constellation, and the President killed that against opposition of both parties by convincing the American public that it was useless, that it was something we'd already done, that we already knew everything there is to know about the Moon, and the public believed it. Mostly.

Why does this matter? Because above and beyond what the narrator says above, America's scientific advantages translate into economic might. Knowing how to do something *before* anyone else has figured it out gives a massive market advantage, not to mention employing tens of thousands of people in the development phase.

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Scorpious
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If I were king...

>>What do you think classifies a nation to be a "superpower" and how would *you* have the world run on a global scale? If we're doing it wrong (and maybe you're not saying we are, but let's assume we are) how would you do things better?<<

Well, I think everyone is agreed that the US is a fully-fledged superpower, and nearly everyone is agreed that there's no one else out there that is (though we probably agree there are some semi-fledged ones).

I don't personally see anything wrong with the US being a superpower, and it's certainly one of the more benign ones the world could have hoped for. Also, we're lucky that the vast majority of Americans are decent people, which is reassuring. Even if things are badly conceived or executed, the general intentions were most likely good, and improvements will be made for the next time.

That said, I obviously don't agree with everything the US does, but that's only natural, and I don't get overly riled up about it :-). I'm sure it wouldn't be productive to get into making lists and counter-lists, though; and in any case, my opinion is sort of irrelevant.--Although ... my wife is American, and I guess I could try to indoctrinate her with my views, so that at least 1 US voter thinks exactly like me :-)

In a very general sense, the one advice that I'd give the US is to focus harder on being liked. Most sane people want to like the US (it's really an incredibly awesome experiment gone well), and they do--until something dumb reminds them that "America is a bully," and whatever that dumb thing was erases all the goodwill that the States has patiently built up. Making others feel included (whether they really are or not) and needed (whether they really are or not) would go a long ways toward making the world a happier place.

Republibot 3.0
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They kinda' do

>>People don't want America to be the world's policeman, but very often that's precisely what we are -- a big, dumb flatfoot forced to confront the situation every cop dreads most, a Domestic Disturbance call.<<

They kinda' do, really. Or did, anyway. After WWII we were the only one of the allies who hadn't lost a limb or two, so the job fell to us by default. There's a reason we've got a permanent seat on the UN Security Council. There's a reason the UN is headquartered in the US. (It should have stayed in San Francisco, though. I think moving it to NYC was a mistake.) There's a reason NATO is still around, and a reason we still maintain a huge military presence in Japan and South Korea. There's a reason the UK shares bases like Diego Garcia with us. There's a reason NATO didn't move against Libya until we were on board, even though we really didn't want to get involved. There's a reason Israel stayed out of the first Gulf War.

It's all the same reason: We're the cops. We're the only ones who can be. Our attempts at creating others to shoulder some of the responsibility (the UN and NATO and SEATO and ANZUS cheifly) have been near-total failures (ANZUS *was* a total failure). Of course nobody likes cops, even though you've got to have 'em, so nobody likes us, much the same way nobody liked the British up until WWII when they were the world's cops.

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To paraphrase P.J. O'Rourke

People don't want America to be the world's policeman, but very often that's precisely what we are -- a big, dumb flatfoot forced to confront the situation every cop dreads most, a Domestic Disturbance call.

neorandomizer
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US power and the world

There is more to it than just foreign aid or military alliance but the whole world order is a creature of the US. The UN, World Bank and International Monetary Fund are all American constructs from after the Second World War.

The US still dominates two out of three and still has a big say in the UN. If the US became isolationist like it was in the inter war years the same chaos that lead to the Second World War would grip the world because in the final analyses the other major powers would not step up.

It is the reason the League of Nations failed no nation would look beyond its own petty interests and do the right thing. The UN is stagnating because the Russians and Chinese are to concerned on sitting precedent that they do not want to live up to. No action in Syria because they may need to suppress the people of Tibet or Chechnya. If the US also acted this way the whole international structure could collapse.

Yes the US has made and will make mistakes but at lest we try which is more than some major nations do.

SheldonCooper
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Interesting Point

>>That's not by any means to say that the US shouldn't have got involved or that we didn't need help! That would be insane! We definitely did, and it was definitely the right thing to do.<<

And, personally, I think we waited too long to do it. I don't like American isolationism, because it's going to make things harder when the problem *does* reach our shores. If your way of life is threatened by a fascist, I say we step in right away and help. But that's just me. I feel that, as the biggest kid in the playground, we have a responsibility to help the smaller kids.

>>I agree, reservedly, that the US sometimes helps the defenseless. I also agree that other nations that aren't superpowers sometimes help the defenseless. IOW, it's not necessary to be a superpower to do so.

I also don't think anyone needs to be a superpower to feed the hungry or provide them with medicines and supplies.<<

See, now that's an interesting take. What do you think classifies a nation to be a "superpower" and how would *you* have the world run on a global scale? If we're doing it wrong (and maybe you're not saying we are, but let's assume we are) how would you do things better?

One lab accident away from being a supervillain! Bazinga!

Scorpious
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alternates

>>Now, let's discuss a little alternate history here. Let's say the Japanese hadn't attacked Pearl Harbor, what would have happened? Maybe Hitler would have left the US alone (I doubt it, but maybe) and we wouldn't have gone there. Do you think Europe could have handled that themselves? Hitler had already conquered most of Europe and was targeting the UK.<<

I think there's a reasonable chance that Hitler would have left the US alone. He wasn't particularly keen on a western front to begin with, and once he got one, he would have had his hands full for quite awhile before conceivably mustering a force that could have threatened the States. He was never even able to cross the Channel--much less the Atlantic IMO.

Long before he could have turned his attention to the States, he would have had to first completely occupy Europe (which he was well on his way to doing, but would probably still have taken him awhile), then completely pacify Europe (which he never even got close to doing even in those areas where he had the most forces and where the worst atrocities were committed. See Poland or Yugoslavia.).

But that wouldn't have been the end of it. The British and French empires were #1 and #2 in the world, and their fleets were #1 and #2 (remember: the US is out of the war in this scenario, so they never build up their fleet to overtake the European ones). Hitler never got his hands on the French fleet or the French Empire, and presumably even if he'd invaded Britain, he wouldn't have gotten his hands on theirs either. Even without US involvement, and even if he did completely take over Europe, this was still a *world* war, and he would have remained at a huge disadvantage however you look at it.

That's not by any means to say that the US shouldn't have got involved or that we didn't need help! That would be insane! We definitely did, and it was definitely the right thing to do. I just have a hard time imagining the Nazi regime successfully lasting for a very long period even if the US had decided to leave us to our own devices.

Plus, Hitler wasn't eternal. He would most likely have eventually been assassinated or somehow died, and then who knows what would have happened. Certainly his military was much less keen on total war than he was.

***
>>Who will defend the defenseless if not for us? If there is no superpower, who will feed the hungry? Who will send medicine and supplies and relief to starving, diseased nations? If no superpower, then who?<<

Biblical tones, eh? ;-)

I agree, reservedly, that the US sometimes helps the defenseless. I also agree that other nations that aren't superpowers sometimes help the defenseless. IOW, it's not necessary to be a superpower to do so.

I also don't think anyone needs to be a superpower to feed the hungry or provide them with medicines and supplies. Scale-wise, it helps to be a superpower, since the total amount is huge; but on the other hand, percentage-wise, the US isn't particularly generous (19th in the world, according to this chart: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Official_Development_Assistance)

SheldonCooper
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>>I think you're missing the

>>I think you're missing the obvious alternative ;-). Most of the people who resent the US' leadership in the world think that *they* could do a better job--they don't think the Chinese or Russians would (unless they're Chinese or Russian themselves, I guess). French want to export their "third way" model to the rest of the world, Scandinavians or Germans want everyone else to do things in the (successfully Socialist, I might add) way they do things. Fundamentalist Islamic militants probably genuinely believe the world would be a better place if they could run it, etc, etc. Of course, some of those are laughable ideas, but they're still where these people are coming from IMO.<<

I think you're missing the underlying point here. And this is why Ron Paul can't be President of the United States: the world needs us. There are no 2 ways about it. We tried to stay neutral twice in wars that were deemed "Europe's War". Now, let's discuss a little alternate history here. Let's say the Japanese hadn't attacked Pearl Harbor, what would have happened? Maybe Hitler would have left the US alone (I doubt it, but maybe) and we wouldn't have gone there. Do you think Europe could have handled that themselves? Hitler had already conquered most of Europe and was targeting the UK. Who will defend the defenseless if not for us? If there is no superpower, who will feed the hungry? Who will send medicine and supplies and relief to starving, diseased nations? If no superpower, then who? Obviously they can't take care of themselves or they would be.

I'm not trying to sound like an arrogant American here. I'm not. But that's an important question the world needs to ask. Sure, America is kind of imperialistic, but we're a benevolent empire. We give and give and give and ask nothing in return apart from friendship and loyalty. We let you govern yourselves and do what you think is best for your own countries. If you don't need our help, then stop asking for it. We don't force our food or medicine or blankets or warriors or money on anyone. You ask, we give. We ask for nothing back.

The question is, if not the US then who? And if the answer is no one, well what happens to the rest of the world then?

One lab accident away from being a supervillain! Bazinga!

Scorpious
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Exceptionalism all around

>>they say "We don't care who rules the world, as long as it's anyone but them." The neglect to consider that the alternatives are far less pleasant.<<

I think you're missing the obvious alternative ;-). Most of the people who resent the US' leadership in the world think that *they* could do a better job--they don't think the Chinese or Russians would (unless they're Chinese or Russian themselves, I guess). French want to export their "third way" model to the rest of the world, Scandinavians or Germans want everyone else to do things in the (successfully Socialist, I might add) way they do things. Fundamentalist Islamic militants probably genuinely believe the world would be a better place if they could run it, etc, etc. Of course, some of those are laughable ideas, but they're still where these people are coming from IMO.

The thing is that people in all these other places feel just as strongly as Americans do that they're exceptional ... and you'd have just as little luck convincing a typical Frenchman that the US is something almost divinely special as he would have convincing you that France is.

I think some may also simply resent the fact that there is a superpower to begin with. A lot of very well-meaning people sincerely feel that the world would be a better place without any superpower at all--i.e., not replacing the US with China, but replacing the US with nothing, and simply letting everyone do their own thing without what they feel is excessive interference from the US.

Of course, if the US simply went away (a la Ron Paul), it's unlikely that no one else would step up to try to become the superpower, but like you said, people don't look that far ahead ... or they simply hope that there would be some kind of balance rather than one hegemonic empire.

Republibot 3.0
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"Anyone but them"

>>Those people who wouldn't mind if America fell off the pinnacle of World Power don't stop to think about which country will inevitably step in to take her place. China? Russia? Do they sincerely think they'll get a better deal with either of them?<<

That's the real question, isn't it? I don't think they think that far along. I mean, it's human nature to resent the top dog, but it's also human wisdom to not kill the top dog unless (A) he's really bad or (B) you've got something better. Clearly neither A nor B apply.

Yeah, mistakes have been made, but I can gurantee the USSR nor the PRC, nor the UN, nor, for that matter, the EU, could have done as generally an 'up with people' job as we have in the seventy years since the world was dropped (Unwanted) in our laps. Brutal dictatorships to the left of me, genocide to the right, fools and drunkards screaming about international law and peace, but at the end of the day it's us that held the line, it's us that keeps wars from sprawling out of control, it's us that donates food to half the world. I don't recall the USSR starting a peace corps, for instance.

But, no, people think we must be evil simply 'cuz we're on top (ANd we still are on top, despite what many say, though our grip is admittedly tenuous, and we actually have competition now) and they say "We don't care who rules the world, as long as it's anyone but them." The neglect to consider that the alternatives are far less pleasant.

The Artist Formerly Known As Republibot 3.0

Mama Fisi
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Gordon Sinclair

If you have never heard this speech, I'm presenting the link to Gordon Sinclair reading his editorial, "The Americans."

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Mwv-dndrMDE

Tex Ritter did a version set to music:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2MjyX0B_w7A

My father gave me a 45 RPM record (remember those?) of Ritter's version. I think the sentiments expressed are still valid today. Some of the facts have been superceded, but the sentiments are still there.

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Mama Fisi
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Thank you

Thank you. And thank you to everyone who does his part to make America the greatest country in the history of the world.

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SheldonCooper
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Two Things

Wow. Great post. There are 2 things that have made America what it is today. Capitalism and a free market. Because we can trade with who we want to (mostly) and because we can keep what we earn (mostly) we are a wealthy people, but we are also a generous people. Which is why the poorest of the poor have Playstations and HD televisions.

And yes, if we were to be usurped as the supreme power in the world you would see China or Russia step up real quick and then everyone would be hurting. Also, let is not forget that if there was no United States the world would be speaking German twice over.

One lab accident away from being a supervillain! Bazinga!

Mama Fisi
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Strewing Eggshells

Europe tore itself apart in two world wars in the first half of the 20th Century, and America took over as the world's leader in industry, commerce, and cultural influence. I think that makes everybody else kind of jealous.

Americans act as the world's police force, but when America goes in and conquers a place, they usually hand the place back to its people along with a very generous stipend to rebuild and be our friends. It hasn't always worked, and in many cases we need to leave some troops behind "just in case," but we are one country that hasn't kept what we conquered.

(Yes, you can debate this on a case-by-case basis. But compared to everybody else, we're pretty generous in this respect.)

So the rest of the squabbling, imperialistic, martial, failed-top-dog world and their impoverished ex-colonies looks at America and wonders how in the hell we do it, why are there McDonald's and Starbucks on every corner, why American cinema makes billions of dollars with pap, why our poor people not only have shoes, but television sets, roofs over their heads, cars, health care services, free education, food, clothes, and lifestyles to which many folks among the poor of foreign lands can only dream about.

They think there's got to be some sorcery in this, so they say that Americans are horrible, gluttonous cads who don't deserve the half of what they've got. And they look at the things that gave America its prosperity and status--industry, commerce, military strength, entrepreneuralism--and they say, "Those are the tsars and the kaisers and the robber barons of America! They and their class must be EVIL! America has poor people too! Poor disenfranchised people relegated to slums and substandard living!"

Never mind the fact that many of those poor people were solicited by a tall green lady standing in a harbor, and arrived on these shores trying to escape an even worse existence back home. Never mind that a lot of those immigrants learned the language, got jobs, started companies, and contributed to the rich fabric of this nation. No, they've got rigid caste systems, so therefore America has to have one, too.

After decades of this drumbeat, a lot of people--abroad and at home--came to believe it. No matter what advancements were made to improve the lives of the less fortunate, it is never enough, just like no matter what has been done to clean up the factories and the environment, we're still told that we're on the verge of devastation if we don't get even cleaner. Ignore the successes, dwell on the problems, and if the problems are small, inflate them to crisis proportions.

Instead of encouraging growth, innovation, and aspiration, these doomsayers and their allies and supporters put regulations and restrictions in place which hamstring the very people upon whom the economy depends, and then triumphantly proclaim that the economy is broken, and only they know how to fix it. Well, their tinkering over the past forty to fifty years has gotten us into this mess--and I mean ALL of us, because the economy of the world is as interconnected as they say the ecology of the world is. Those people who want to "punish" Big Oil don't realize that their 401(k) plans probably include stock in an oil company. The people promoting the use of electric cars never stop to think about what generates the electricity they'd need to recharge their cute little toys. But then we may not need cars at all soon: If we shut down all the corporations, who will we work for?

Those people who wouldn't mind if America fell off the pinnacle of World Power don't stop to think about which country will inevitably step in to take her place. China? Russia? Do they sincerely think they'll get a better deal with either of them?

Masquerading as a normal person day after day is exhausting.
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Republibot 3.0
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Prussia vs. Cuba

>>In every communist/socialist/pinko country, the people are poor and the elite in the government have the money. <<

Here's how it works in Cuba: Cuba was a dirt-poor colony of the Spanish empire, in revolt against their masters. The US got involved, thereby ending the Spanish Empire and liberating Cuba which, alas, continued to be dirt poor. Even as a capitalist democracy, it was still dirt poor because essentially it was horribly corrupt, pretty much like every other country in Latin America, regardless of what kind of government they had on paper. Thus Cubans stayed too poor to own shoes, and the rich got richer. The Cubans were in more or less constant revolt, and in fact the US knocked over and replaced the Cuban government at least three times between 1897 and 1950. Each new one was as bad or worse than the last, during which Cubans were, as I said, too poor to own shoes.

Each new rebel leader said "Follow me, we'll overthrow the bastards, and then you'll have shoes and education and money and blah blah blah." As soon as the rebels won, they immediately turned their backs on their supporters who continued to be too poor to afford anything apart from starvation and disease.

Along comes Castro. Castro does the same exact thing as any number of Cuban rebel leaders before him, excepting this: he didn't keep anywhere *near* all his promises, but he did keep *some* of them. Thus, Cubans are still dirt poor, but they do at least have shoes now. This is a net increase for them, and they adore the guy for it, despite him being a brutal dictator. This is why there's never been a counter-revolution, and why he held power for like fifty years: Cubans loved him because now they have shoes.

This is something we as Americans never really understand because of our wealth: a little bit to people who are really in need means a lot. Does communism work? No, of course not, but it appeals to people who have less than nothing, and if it gets them something, no matter how small, they'll stay loyal to it. "Rob from the rich, give to the poor" has some appeal there. In the US, it's more like "Rob from the moderately wealthy and give to the somewhat less wealthy." We don't have the extremes of poverty they have in other countries.

Now, the way the Prussians used to do taxation was interesting. Basically they didn't tax. They took contributions, and charged other countries for their services. They were a martial people, and roughly one quarter of the population was involved directly or indirectly with the army. The bulk of the expense was paid for by selling their services to *other* countries as mercinaries, for which they were in great demand. If they had continued shortfalls, however, or if there was an unseemly long period of piece, the Prussians made up for it by literally going door to door and asking people for donations.

They didn't force or coerce people into giving money, and you were free to say 'no.' Many people *did* say 'no,' but the Army *Was* fond of being somewhat intimidating. When they went door to door, they'd sometimes take entire units along as a visual aid. Imagine being a farmer, hearing a knock at the door, and finding 1/4th of the population of the country on your lawn asking if you'd like to buy Prussian Girl Scout Cookies...

The Artist Formerly Known As Republibot 3.0

Republibot 3.0
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One size does not fit all

>>Somehow, I don't think people who don't live in America have any grounds to tell those of us who do live here how the situation here really is. Yeah, we're guilty of presuming how life is in other countries too, but there's something ineffably annoying to be told that if anything is wrong with America, it's the fault of the evil capitalistic Conservatives--by people who live in Germany and Australia.<<

We have a number of foreigners on here, and they're all great contributors and fun to talk to. I make a point of never applying *OUR* concept of Left and Right to other countries. Pretty much every English speaking country in the world is more liberal than us, as is Western Europe, but I don't see that as a reason to rag on 'em. They don't have our history, they've come up with their own solutions to problems which make sense to them. Some of 'em work, some of 'em don't. Many of them are not American solutions, but as they're not Americans, I don't expect 'em to see things the way we do. Hell, some of OUR ways of doing things don't work. There's lots of ways to run a country.

So by our standards, Canada and France and the UK are "Liberal" but that's imposing the standards of an apple on an orange. Subjectively, those countries are just about right for them. So I don't criticize Japan for being basically a one-party democracy for the same reason I don't criticize the UK for being a monarchy, I see both as kinda' wrong-headed, but it's a mistake to assume my way of doing stuff is the only way it can be done.

I am shocked at how few people afford the same courtesy. I just assume it's the vocal few scream-and-leap types, and not the majority. But, hey, if Europe decries the "Ugly American" outlook, well I suppose there's just as likely to be an "Ugly Australian" or "Ugly Belgian" outlook as well, right?

The Artist Formerly Known As Republibot 3.0

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Rand and Robin

>>>>
Look at medievel England. Poor people, rich monarchy. Robin Hood is credited with robbing from the rich and giving to the poor, which is true but it isn't accurate. Robin Hood took from the government and returned the money to the overtaxed people who rightly earned it. Oh man, it cheesed me off to no end when people were comparing Obama's redistribution of wealth policies to Robin Hood. Anyone who says that has never read The Merry Adventures of Robin Hood.
>>>>

Ayn Rand said that the simplified Robin Hood story (rob from the rich, give to the poor, no deeper explanation as to why) was the most pernicious and dangerous legend in human history, and we should be better off without any tale so easily perverted into a rallying cry for redistributionism; hence Ragnar Danneskjold, the inverted Robin Hood of Atlas Shrugged, who made a very big deal about stealing solely from government looters. (I'm being charitable to Rand here, of course -- she usually talked about Robin Hood as though the simplified story was somehow the only version she'd ever heard. Then again, it does seem to be the only version most people ever hear, so that might have been her point.)

SheldonCooper
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Robin Hood and Prince Prospero

>>Somehow, I don't think people who don't live in America have any grounds to tell those of us who do live here how the situation here really is. Yeah, we're guilty of presuming how life is in other countries too, but there's something ineffably annoying to be told that if anything is wrong with America, it's the fault of the evil capitalistic Conservatives--by people who live in Germany and Australia.<<

I really don't understand the allure of communism, or socialism if you want to be polite about it. Don't these people pay attention? In every communist/socialist/pinko country, the people are poor and the elite in the government have the money. It's like that in any dictatorship, no matter what their economic philosophy. Look at medievel England. Poor people, rich monarchy. Robin Hood is credited with robbing from the rich and giving to the poor, which is true but it isn't accurate. Robin Hood took from the government and returned the money to the overtaxed people who rightly earned it. Oh man, it cheesed me off to no end when people were comparing Obama's redistribution of wealth policies to Robin Hood. Anyone who says that has never read The Merry Adventures of Robin Hood. Obama is more like Prince Prospero. If you've never read Masque of the Red Death by Edgar Allan Poe, he was an elitist prince who locked himself and his friends up in his palace where they would all be safe from a plague that was ravaging his kingdom, all the while watching the people outside die horrible, horrible deaths at the hands of this plague. Read it, that's Obama. Obama is living high on the hog while watching the rest of America die horribly in an economic plague. Doesn't keep him from his vacations or his tea parties or state dinners or private concerts with Paul McCartney at the White House. Whotta douche

One lab accident away from being a supervillain! Bazinga!

Mama Fisi
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Drinking The Kool-Aide

My husband posted a link to this video in his blog, and promptly got jumped on by two guys who don't even live in America, telling him how wrong and wrong-headed and full of lies and calumny this video is.

To me, that's further proof of how well the foreign media has been able to misreprsent America overseas. I watched this video and kept nodding my head. They saw it as negative propaganda against the environmental movement and all that's holy.

Somehow, I don't think people who don't live in America have any grounds to tell those of us who do live here how the situation here really is. Yeah, we're guilty of presuming how life is in other countries too, but there's something ineffably annoying to be told that if anything is wrong with America, it's the fault of the evil capitalistic Conservatives--by people who live in Germany and Australia.

Apparently Paul Harvey had a monologue many years ago which was the inspiration for this video.

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neorandomizer
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The party's over

What is happening now is what happens when an empire reaches its limit. We do not want to decrease our military empire so we cut science and technology. The other thing is the political class realizes that power is slipping from there hands so they come up with a kabuki dance of issues that in fact mean nothing but clouds the minds of the electorate.

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