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HOW NOT TO LOOK LIKE AN IDIOT: “Secession”

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These are trying times for Republicans. Not only did we lose the election, we got pantsed. Control of both houses and the presidency have been lost. We’re involved in two unpopular wars, we‘re bordering on a third, the government is deeply in debt, the international economy is in the crapper, and whether wrong or right, the strong public consensus is that it’s entirely our fault. Whether you’re a die-hard Bush supporter, or a moderate who feels mistakes were made, I think it’s pretty obvious that the party and its members are having a bit of an image problem right now.

To that end, I humbly submit this guide on how we can change our reputation and not be perceived as paranoid racists and raving religious fanatics, at least on a one-to-one basis.

LESSON 4: “Secession”

I’m a conservative, you’re a conservative, we’re all conservatives, we tend to identify ourselves based on our conservative views, we tend to flock together on and offline based around the things we believe in much the same way the other side does. That‘s human nature. But just as there is a radical fringe of liberalism that would make most Democrats step back and say, ‘Whoa, dude, that’s messed up!’ there is also a radical fringe of conservatism that is insidious, dangerous, and just plain wrong, and we need, need, need to distance ourselves from it publicly. I mean, there’s a difference between Conservative Views and Flat Out Whack-A-Mole Thinking, and we can’t let ourselves get subverted, or even associated with the latter if we ever want to be taken seriously in politics.

I’m referring to Secessionists.

This is not a new phenomenon, of course: There was a little thing called “The Civil War,” there were nasty almost-civil-war outbreaks of it in 1815 and 1830. There’s always been a pinch of it in our society, but it’s really mushroomed of late, to the point where everybody knows one: a person who seems rational enough, but then they start using words like ‘Statism’ and gibbering about how the president is really a Muslim spy sent here by the Illuminati to destroy us as part of their larger scheme to build landing pads for gay Martian flying saucers, who will then use them to fly Satan here from his home in the Crab Nebula. Then they start going on about Wyoming or Idaho or Kentucky or Vermont could be, nay, should be an independent nation, and how “Delaware doesn’t need America, America needs Delaware!” and how [Insert name of state here] would doubtless become a major world power, if only it were to cut lose the US of A, which is, of course, now a Godless, soulless, evil society governed by communist perverts who flout the intentions of the Founding Father.

Ok, I pumped that up a bit for comedic purposes. I admit I haven’t heard the whole “Satan Lives In The Crab Nebula” thing since the early ‘90s, and I got the “Landing pads for gay Martians” thing from a Dead Milkmen song (“Stuart”), but the rest of it is all stuff I’ve heard people saying (Though in some cases the names of the states have been changed to protect the guilty). The point being we all know people like this, maybe even some of the people reading this article *are* like this.

Well, I’m here today to tell you why this is idiocy and it makes all of us look bad.

#1 - IT’S RADICAL. “Conservatism” is all about holding on to core values about which society is based: God, Country, Family, Loyalty, Honesty, Honor, Barbeque. That’s not to say that Conservatism is opposed to social change - clearly it isn’t - but one of our fundamental precepts is that change should be incremental and somewhat slow, so as to make sure we’re not making a horrible mistake. You simply don’t change the rules of the game all at once - like the Democrats seem to want to do - and you *CERTAINLY* don’t get upset, knock over the table in the middle of the game, storm home, and load up your shotgun. That is, by definition, Radical, which is, by definition, not conservative.

If you want to do this, you are *not* a Conservative. Certainly you’re not a Republican.

#2 - IT’S DISLOYAL. As Republicans, we tend to believe in America far more than our Democratic cousins appear to. They’re always screaming and moaning about this or that perceived outrage, lobbying to destroy projects that would conceivably help their aims (Nuclear research,

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Republibot 3.0
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Deep in the heart of a piece of what used to be Texas

Yeah, I find that weird, too. I'm wondering if it's rather unique status - an actual independent country for 13 years - might have caused Congress to treat it both like a state *and* a territory that they could just whittle away at. Or maybe Texas insisted on it figuring they deserved more pull in Congress than the other states. That's the theory I've heard most often: That Texas was willing to trade 2 senators and 1 rep for 10 senators and 5 reps, but that the whole thing fell apart when they realized there'd be no way to guarantee they'd all vote as a block, and dumped the idea. But that's just a theory I've heard, no idea if it's true.

There *was* some talk after the Civil War of breaking the state in half, presumably as part of the reconstruction-era reprisals. They went so far as to draw up a constitution for "The State of West Texas" but it doesn't appear to have gone further than that. Around 1867 or so.

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kelloggs2066
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Texas

Most Texans are sufficiently proud of the state that they would not want to divide it.

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Republibot 3.0
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Just a little footnote regarding Texas

Texas frequently state that Texas has special dispensation and is allowed to leave the union any time they feel like it, a right not shared by other states. In response to this article, Texans have specifically told me the arguments I used above don't apply to them, since it's one of the terms under which statehood was granted them.

No one has ever actually been able to *show* me this alleged document, and I kinda' doubt such a thing ever existed. I have no doubts, however, that such an agreement wouldn't be valid today.

Quoting Jeff Walther:
> There's nothing in the state constitution or the agreement to bring it
> into the Union to give it any right to secede. Both of these documents are
> on line. Moreover, there's a Supreme Court case from 1869, "Texas vs.
> White", which pretty much establishes that no state can unilaterally secede.
>
> The case is quite interesting reading.. let me quote a couple of
> paragraphs from it..
>
> "The act which consummated her admission into the Union was something more
> than a compact; it was the incorporation of a new member into the political
> body. And it was final. The union between Texas and the other States was as
> complete, as perpetual, and as indissoluble as the union between the
> original States. There was no place for reconsideration or revocation,
> except through revolution or through consent of the States.
>
> Considered therefore as transactions under the Constitution, the ordinance
> of secession, adopted by the convention and ratified by a majority of the
> citizens of Texas, and all the acts of her legislature intended to give
> effect to that ordinance, were absolutely null. They were utterly without
> operation in law. The obligations of the State, as a member of the Union,
> and of every citizen of the State, as a citizen of the United States,
> remained perfect and unimpaired."
>
> http://www.law.cornell.edu/supct/html/historics/USSC_CR_0074_0700_ZO.html
>
>
> Now, it's a different issue about splitting into 5 states. If you go read
> the "Joint Resolution for Annexing Texas to the United States, Approved
> March 1, 1845", under Section 2 it has the phrases
>
> "Third -- New States of convenient size not exceeding four in number, in
> addition to said State of Texas and having sufficient population, may,
> hereafter by the consent of said State, be formed out of the territory
> thereof, which shall be entitled to admission under the provisions of the
> Federal Constitution; and such states as may be formed out of the territory
> lying south of thirty-six degrees thirty minutes north latitude, commonly
> known as the Missouri Compromise Line, shall be admitted into the Union,
> with or without slavery, as the people of each State, asking admission
> shall desire; and in such State or States as shall be formed out of said
> territory, north of said Missouri Compromise Line, slavery, or involuntary
> servitude (except for crime) shall be prohibited."
>
>https://www.tsl.state.tx.us/ref/abouttx/annexation/march1845.html
>
> However, Article IV Section 3 of the US Constitution has a different take
> on this:
>
> "New states may be admitted by the Congress into this union; but no new
> states shall be formed or erected within the jurisdiction of any other
> state; nor any state be formed by the junction of two or more states, or
> parts of states, without the consent of the legislatures of the states
> concerned as well as the Congress."
>
> My reading of that is that its murky, but most likely not to be upheld
> that Texas can unilaterally split. *If* they split, they would not be
> recognized as 5 states, unless that was confirmed by a vote of both houses
> of Congress. You can argue the resolution of 1845 gave Congressional
> agreement to this, but I don't think that would be upheld. However, if
> Texas split into 5 states, and *if* the US Congress voted to agree to this
> -- that's legal. But I find that highly unlikely...

The Artist Formerly Known As Republibot 3.0

Scorpious
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Good point

>>European countries settling their differences without killing people is still a comparatively new trend.<<

Touché!

Republibot 3.0
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"Let's not call them anything, let's just ignore them."

>>>Belgium being European, though, they'd hopefully do things a bit more civilized.<<<

European countries settling their differences without killing people is still a comparatively new trend. One hopes it isn't just a passing one.

The Artist Formerly Known As Republibot 3.0

Republibot 3.0
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Yup, exactly

Yup, exactly. Not only are they trying to make the Jesusland map (A mean-spirited Democratic gag) into a reality, but they're trying to cloak in the guise of glitzy-seeming false logic. I guess selfrighteousness makes treason easier to swallow? I dunno.

Traditionally, the small numbers of these folks were illiterate paranoid whackjobs. Now there's a whole lot more of them (Though still a small minority, they've easily trippled in the last two years. I'll give you one guess why.)

The Artist Formerly Known As Republibot 3.0

Scorpious
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Case for secession

I guess your post refers to people like this?
http://www.amnation.com/vfr/archives/016835.html

It is a bit whacky, but a fun read :-)

Scorpious
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Belgium

>>>the (British-made) ridiculous state of Belgium, it'll certainly happen peacefully.<<<

Back up: Belgium is British-made? Explain, please!

____________________________

I seem to have gotten that idea from an old movie or historical series I saw ages ago about Queen V and the king of Belgium. But I looked it up now, and while the treaty that created Belgium is one of the "London Treaties" (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Treaty_of_London,_1839), it doesn't seem that the Brits were that much more involved than anyone else. Good thing you caught that.

That said, Belgium is a really strange place--people who sincerely and passionately detest one another and have no incentive or desire to be decent to the other side but are artificially stuck together. If Europe were Africa, Belgium would be Rwanda--ironic that they were the old colonial masters there..

Belgium being European, though, they'd hopefully do things a bit more civilized.

neorandomizer
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Canada nice country but to damn cold

I remember reading that the last time Quebec came close to braking away that some of the western provinces were drawing up plans to ask to join the US. This might have just been a political threat but I am sure some would.

Republibot 3.0
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Canada Will Not Go To War

>>>Oh, I forgot to say that if Quebec ever votes for independence (they seem to get closer and closer), no one seriously expects Canada to go to war with them.<<<

That's kind of the point of Canada, isn't it? That they don't go to war, and that they constantly complain about us Shatner-stealing Mexico-touching continent hogs to their south, and use verrrrrrrrry tendentious proofs that Canada is infinitely superior to us barbarians down here. ("Our country is almost a perfect rectangle." I actually read that in a book once.)

My dad is an ex-Canadian, by the way, from Quebec. I've actually got nothing but love for Canada, spent many a summer there, we couldn't ask for a better upstairs neighbor, but the Cultural Inferiority Complex does get tiresome quickly.

If Quebec does go, it'll be interesting to see if Canada itself survives, or if it balkanizes into the Maritimes as one country, and the Central and Western Provinces as another.

The Artist Formerly Known As Republibot 3.0

Republibot 3.0
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The Raj

>>>The Soviet Union's dissolution into 15 sovereign countries happened without a shot. Granted, a very small minority of those countries then got entangled into border disputes with their neighbours, but overall, it went exceptionally smoothly and peacefully<<<

Yup. You got me there. I completely forgot about the largest completely peaceful secession event in history. I'm wrong on that one and yo're right.

I ammend my stance to "Almost never."

>>>the (British-made) ridiculous state of Belgium, it'll certainly happen peacefully.<<<

Back up: Belgium is British-made? Explain, please!

>>>There can be an argument that the original states were never "real" ones and that it was inevitable that they'd break up, but that doesn't take away from the fact that they did it peacefully.<<<

They're real enough. I've always been fascinated by the imposition of "State Nations" (As opposed to "Nation States") by the Colonial Powers in the 19th and early 20th centuries, nations carved out of lines on a map, completely ignoring cultural, population, and lingual divides. Such countries tend to be pretty unstable since there's really nothing organic holding 'em together in the first place.

The Artist Formerly Known As Republibot 3.0

Republibot 3.0
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1776

>>>Was your lot's 1776 rebellion then a sin?<<<

It's popular for College Freshman Girls and College Professors who are tyring to sleep with Freshman Girls to say that the Revolution was really all about a bunch of rich white dudes who decided they didn't want to pay taxes anymore. Obviously, I don't agree with that. From a strictly Biblical view, however, the answer is pretty obvious.

The Artist Formerly Known As Republibot 3.0

Scorpious
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Quebec

Oh, I forgot to say that if Quebec ever votes for independence (they seem to get closer and closer), no one seriously expects Canada to go to war with them.

All of the above said, I do think you're right that in cases where the only difference is of political views, secession is a bad solution.

Scorpious
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Peaceful partitions

>>When has that ever worked? Answer: Never! There isn’t a single example I can think of where country A has broken into countries B and C without a whole lot of killing going on.<<

You're in fact right in general, and the Brits have shown a particular propensity to partitioning countries, the better to divide the local populations and maintain their influence. The Raj (which went as far west as Somalia, and included Burma and Sri Lanka in the east), Palestine, and of course Ireland are the main examples. However (when Brits weren't involved, heh), there have been successful (and peaceful) partitions.

The dissolution of Czechoslovakia in 1993 is a case in point. Intial hard feelings and some resentment notwithstanding, there are now two friendly nations who just happen to be better off and happier separate than they were together. The Soviet Union's dissolution into 15 sovereign countries happened without a shot. Granted, a very small minority of those countries then got entangled into border disputes with their neighbours, but overall, it went exceptionally smoothly and peacefully. Yugoslavia did have a history of painfully violent partitions, but in 2006, Montenegro and Serbia separated and peacefully ended the Yugoslav Federation.

That's only for fairly modern history. In the early 20th century, for instance, Norway and Sweden separated after negotiations.

If the Flemish and Walloons ever finally make up their minds to go their separate ways and do away with the (British-made) ridiculous state of Belgium, it'll certainly happen peacefully.

There can be an argument that the original states were never "real" ones and that it was inevitable that they'd break up, but that doesn't take away from the fact that they did it peacefully.

Scorpious
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Revolutionary War?

Apply this to when the US was Britain's colony:
>>Is the government forcing you to engage in Sexual Immorality? No. Is the government forcing you to drink blood? No. Is the government forcing you to eat food sacrificed to idols? No. Is the government forcing you to eat strangled animals? No. (Acts 15:20) Is the government forcing you to exclude elders and deacons from the leadership of your church? No. Is the government forcing you to stop looking after widows and orphans? No. Is the government forcing you to be polluted by the world? No. (James 1:27) Is the government holding you down and saying ‘you can’t worship God anymore?’ No.

So there you go: There is no justification for talk of secession, and that’s not my opinion, brother, that’s straight from the Bible. You can play all the paranoid schizophrenic games you want, but let’s not pretend it’s anything other than sin, shall we?<<

Was your lot's 1776 rebellion then a sin?

--Sorry, this was too good to pass up on :-)

Republibot 3.0
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Asessment

I think that's actually a pretty on-the-money appraisal of the sad situation, really. Thank you.

The Artist Formerly Known As Republibot 3.0

neorandomizer
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When emotions run hot

Both major political parties are object failures as leaders and in the art of governing. The third parties in this country are mostly a can short of a six pack and the Congress has abused the commerce clause of the Constitution so they have power over things that have always been in the purview of States and local governments. The Supreme Court has not only failed in its job to check the other two branches of government but at times has aided the over reaching of the Congress and bureaucracy.

Secession is an emotional reaction not a rational one born of frustration and a seeming lack of good alternatives. The Constitution was written to govern a small agrarian nation not a continent wide world dominating industrial and military empire. Its flaws helped by the politicians of the day caused the Civil War and all though the amendments after the war righted many wrongs done to the people in servitude it did nothing to address the modern power relationship between the States and the Federal government which was redefined by force of arms.

So we have three basic problems a political class that acts more like Roman Senators than representatives of a modern republic. A Constitution that is showing its age and a government that can’t seem to govern. (As seen by the keystone cops events in the Gulf oil spill.)

Since revolution and secession are part of our history and in theory the States are sovereign unto themselves it is not surprising when things are going bad the left seeks rebellion and the right seeks separation.

The answer to our problems is simple real leadership from both political parties and the President. A scaling back of Federal power and effective State government but I despair that this will happen before the United States becomes a thing for the history books.

I do not see anyone putting country before party in both the Republican and Democrat Parties and in the vacuum of political leadership the bureaucracy is grabbing more power and causing more problems for normal folks just trying to live from day to day.

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